Schwartz, a fraud?

[Fleetwood Mac]

You can't scream softly. I believe she said 'no' three times, which is perfectly in keeping with witness evidence in both the Nichols case (see Harriett Lilley) and Chapman (Cadosch).

Isn't there a statement along the lines of : "she screamed 3 times but not very loud".

This (and every other mystery) is answered if one accepts that Jack the Ripper used robbery by knifepoint as a ruse to gain control over his victims. Also possible is that Pipeman and BS man were working together, although there's no direct evidence for that.

There are a boat load of possibilities here.....none of which can be proven or disproven.....

A simple one: "I'll pay you extra if we can have sex lying down.....will you?".....and he could have explained this need in a variety of ways.....such as an ailment....

[Rubyretro]

Lynn -an idea about the cachous..
First of all the cachous were in Liz's LEFT hand. Whilst Liz may have been
left handed, in all probability she was right handed, as are the majority of people. If so, she had taken out the cachous from her pocket and then transfered them to her right hand, in order to leave that hand free for something else that she was doing.

Could that had been to take money from her client, or find change (? would customers have always the exact right sum demanded ?). Wouldn't coins in a pocket slip down easily under the cachous, meaning that the box would need to be moved before you could easily access your money ?

Maybe Jack 'pounced' when she was looking down and fiddling about with her money.

We know that she'd had several customers that night -but her corpse was found with no money. So either BSM had robbed her -or JtR did, before he got away. If it was JtR, he seemed to know where her money was in an awful hurry, without rifling her.

[Observer]

A simple one: "I'll pay you extra if we can have sex lying down.....will you?".....and he could have explained this need in a variety of ways.....such as an ailment....

Weak legs?

Observer

[lynn cates]

visa or master card

Hello Ruby. Hmmm. Cachous in one hand and change for her assailant in the other? I would love to see a lady of the evening with accommodations for a visa or master card. "Don't worry, Ducky. We can slide that here." Of course, a third hand might be required for that.

You said:

"We know that she'd had several customers that night"

Do we? How on earth do we know that? Don't forget that some of us still dispute that she was soliciting.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

So either BSM had robbed her -or JtR did

Exactly, which is why the cachous was in her hand. Put on a pair of pants with deep pockets, now toss some change and one money note in there. Wait a while to let them settle and then quickly grab for the change...you'll find the paper bill gets lodged between your thumb and forefinger...just as the cachous wrapped in tissue paper did in Stride's case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"Whilst Liz may have been
left handed, in all probability she was right handed, as are the majority of people."

Perhaps, Ruby. But you may have noticed that she was carrying her flower on the RIGHT side of her bosom...?

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

I have trouble with the robbery at knife point ruse. To me, it seems like overkill (no pun intended). Why would he need to resort to that? Would the women somehow feel safer thinking that they were only being robbed as compared to thinking Jack was just another customer? Also, if for some reason, he decided not to go through with the murder, he has committed a crime and allowed the victim to identify him. Prostitutes were probably not real eager to go to the police but he couldn't be absolutely certain of that. That seems to be an unnecessary chance.

c.d.

[Observer]

Hi Fisher

Ruby:

"Whilst Liz may have been
left handed, in all probability she was right handed, as are the majority of people."

Perhaps, Ruby. But you may have noticed that she was carrying her flower on the RIGHT side of her bosom...?

The best,
Fisherman

Placed there by her left handed killer ?

all the best

Observer

[mariab]

C.D. wrote:
What we don't know is if there was anything uttered before and after Schwartz heard "Lipski." It was the only word he recognized so we have no context for it.
Damn straight, C.D.! As always, the discussion suddenly advances when you contribute. (Then the discussion gets stuck and goes back to going around in circles, but I guess that's the nature of Ripperologigal threads, and one should embrace it and enjoy it for the richness and extreme plurality that it is!

[mariab]

Wescott wrote:
You can't scream softly. I believe she said 'no' three times, which is perfectly in keeping with witness evidence in both the Nichols case (see Harriett Lilley) and Chapman (Cadosch). (...) Stride was not tough. She was slight and had a deformed leg, which probably led more to her falling down than BS Man's push.
I think that a meek woman might have “screamed softly“, if under the impression that the situation she was in was not life-endangering. The parallels with what Cadosh heard are haunting, and I'm surprised than no one else has commented on this!
Wescott wrote:
I know women like to romanticize these women into Angelina Jolie type characters, but it's not real. If a man has a knife to your throat, you do as he says. That's precisely what 'streetwise' women will tell you.
These Victorian “unfortunates“ had NOTHING whatsoever in common with an “Angelina Jolie type“.
As for the man-has-a knife-on-your-throat-thus-you-do-as-he-says scenario, I don't think it's necessarily the best “streetwise“ idea. It depends on the knife and on the position on your throat where it's heading/landed. There's always the possibility of a good butt-heading, which can have devastating results and doesn't even require superhuman strength. (And I speak from experience here, although the damaged I inflicted happened totally accidentally/unintentionally – I think.)
Of course, any streewise person would know that the point is to be aware of your surroundings, don't let anyone approach you too close, and do everything to avoid being found in the situation of man-has-a knife-on-your-throat. Still, there are even far worse situations than man-has-a knife-on-your-throat, as in you-did-what-the-man-with-the-knife-on-your-throat-said-and-you-ended-up-in-the-man's-car. So I'd say that it might be better to risk a minor or even a serious throat injury in a busy street, than to follow an assailant into an isolated place.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Fisher



Placed there by her left handed killer ?

all the best

Observer

Good point, Observer.
Does anybody know when the flower was first noticed by witnesses? Do we know whether she left her digs with a flower pinned to her jacket?
A fascinating thread,
Cheers
Norma

[mariab]

quote Fleetwood Mac:
“I'll pay you extra if we can lie down“...and he could have explained this need in a variety of ways.
Observer wrote:
Weak legs?
Lynn Cates wrote:
Stride with accomodations for VISA or Mastercard.
quote Fisherman:
But you may have noticed that she was carrying her flower on the RIGHT side of her bosom...?
Observer wrote:
Placed there by her left handed killer ?
I LOVE casebook!

Rubyretro wrote:
We know that she'd had several customers that night.
She very possibly did, Ruby (unless the multiple men descriptions are the result of the witnesses being unable to describe the same man correctly!), so I too am pondering over the question how on earth she managed to end up with LESS money than what she already had before she started solliciting that evening! It might be that the man she spent most of the evening with was a date, a romantic interest, and she might have ended up paying for his drinks. Then he might have split for some reason (went to work, went to seek for greener pastures, whatever), and with no cash left she had to require to solliciting. (But this is just one possible scenario out of many for what might have happened.)
I believe that we should totally consider the robbery-at-knifepoint scenario, altough I agree with C.D. that it brought up unnecessary risks for the killer. (Who went for a degree of unnecessary risk anyway. Certainly not in his victims selection, but on commiting his crimes outside, on busy streets etc.. etc..)

[lynn cates]

sundry

Hello Maria.

"'We know that she'd had several customers that night.'
She very possibly did, Ruby (unless the multiple men descriptions are the result of the witnesses being unable to describe the same man correctly!)"

Or possibly an inability to distinguish Liz from another similarly placed lady. Again, think absent flower in those descriptions. If, however, the flower were given her after the sightings, whence came it? Did a boyfriend follow her from place to place, clutching the flower, yet fail to pin it on?

"so I too am pondering over the question how on earth she managed to end up with LESS money than what she already had . . ."

Question: what is the price of cachous and a flower?

"before she started soliciting that evening."

How do we know she was soliciting? Not a bad assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Observer:

"Placed there by her left handed killer?"

Quite possibly, Observer! All I am saying is that if Liz did it herself, then there is little more of a chance that she was left-handed. Likewise, if it was placed there by somebody standing on her opposite side, then a right-handed person would probably put it on her left side, whereas - just as you point out, a left-hander would probably put it on the right side.

The best,
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

Its a neat observation though isn"t it Fisherman and could ultimately prove quite a valuable one---we need to keep an eye on this thread,its moving us on a pace,
Cheers,
Norma