Schwartz, a fraud?

[corey123]

Hi Corey

You believe. That doesn't mean it is. I believe that he is false. Again that doesn't mean it is.

Of course, understood. Just my thoughts on it.

Im not so sure the case being that he lied to anyone, just that he didn't see everything that happened and fillled in the holes himself.

Then what happened in your opinion and what were the holes he filled in?

I agree with you suggestion that she was in no dangher, this is the point I am trying to make

OK-but my point is that she may have thought that she was still in no real danger because she thought the man was not JtR, just a man that was pissed off because he had spent some time and money on her and had not got his way. hence she was only yelling for him to stop (so not so loud), not screaming bloody murder for anyone to help her (which would have been louder).


This only works if you think BS is "Jack the Ripper".

I think there is a very good chance of it.

You do realize once her throat was cut, she would be able to makew no sounds whatsoever apart from the weird gurgling sound you expect to hear when ones, carotidu artery was severed.

Not sure if I believe this totally as i think that if the larynx is not cut than you can still vocalize, even with a cut throat/artery. But whatever, this was just a second less possibility that I had brought up and less likely than my main/first scenario which was him dragging her into the alley/yard after scaring off IS and then cutting her throat.

Could you elaborate what your opinion/theory is of what hapened with stride that night?

Hello Abby,

I think what the majority think. I think she was murdered by Jack the Ripper. However, I do not for one second take IS story as reliable.

[corey123]

My view......

Fanny Moritmer is at the door.....her story backed up by someone who read about Mortimer's account and made his way to the police station......she's two doors up...hears nothing of Schwartz and associates.....

There are no bruises on Stride's knees etc....even though she is thrown to the ground.....

Pipe Man does not come forward.....

Brown.....Fanny Mortimer's couple etc....see nothing.....

Now.....you gotta be pulling' a few good old strings to give Schwartz the opportunity to see what he did with no one hearing sight nor sound.....

Fisherman states that a newspaper pretty much reiterated the same story printed in another newspaper.....nothing interesting in that.....two men seen running up the street as recalled by Schwartz.....no disrespect to Fisherman but doesn't sound like an eye witness account to me.....unlike Mortimer.....

Oh....and a couple of club members are milling about too....12.40ish....

And there is a window open right by the club....

No one hears a thing....only Schwartz......

Now I was reading Grainger's arrest the other night.....and was starting to give Schwartz the benefit of the doubt in that he was prepared to drag a woman off the street so why not Schwartz's assailant...except no one hears of Schwartz's event.....and we have a woman two doors up who hears 'the heavy measured tramp' of a policeman go past...and the cart fella's cart...and sees Goldstein......but does not see Schwartz and associates running around......

From what we know.....I'd give Schwartz's story a 15% chance of being something other than an invention.....and that's being kind.....

Make that 10%

[lynn cates]

generosity

Hello Corey.

"Make that 10%"

Well, generosity has always been your weakness (heh-heh).

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

I think what the majority think. I think she was murdered by Jack the Ripper. However, I do not for one second take IS story as reliable.

Hi corey
Thanks. I am starting think you may be right.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Fish. Regarding the Scotsman story--the tale was told by whom?

I wasn't aware this was published in the Scotsman, but I know it appeared in the Echo. The reporter's source was William Wess, who's source was almost certain Israel Schwartz. I believe Schwartz had been living at the Berner Street club up until the day of the murder, and feel that William Wess was likely his intepreter to the police, although I can prove none of this presently.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood Mac:

Blackwell´s estimation was that Stride had died 20-30 minutes before his arrival at 01.16. That puts it at somewhere between 12.46 - 12.56.

1.16....I wouldn't doubt that....if anyone is going to get the time right it's someone whose job it was to do so.

But 4 minutes out in a murder time? Easily done.

If Mortimer is at the door for 10 minutes....conservative estimate...then I'd say she's there around 12.47 latest......probably 12.46 just after she hears the'tramp' go past.....

Either the 'tramp' is the killer.....at 12.44ish (alright not quite 12.42) or PC Smith and he has his time out which is possible as there are people running round at 1 and he doesn't hear it....or PC Smith is the killer.....

[lynn cates]

club member

Hello Tom. Yes. My point? He was a club member.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. I was the first to suggest that Schwartz was a club attendee (probably not a paying member) and got raked over the coals for it. Of course, it is just a theory...has not been proved...but is possible. It still doesn't mean he didn't see what he said he saw, but intriguing nonetheless. Those who think that BS Man behaved unlike the Ripper (they're wrong) and use this to bolster their theory of Stride as a non-Ripper victim will not go down easy fighting for their hero.

Blackwell´s estimation was that Stride had died 20-30 minutes before his arrival at 01.16. That puts it at somewhere between 12.46 - 12.56.

Not exactly. Those are his outside estimates, so the time of murder could reach all the way up and beyond 1am, except for Diemschitz finding the body, which puts a 1am cap on it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

If Mortimer is at the door for 10 minutes....conservative estimate...then I'd say she's there around 12.47 latest......probably 12.46 just after she hears the'tramp' go past.....

Hi Fleet. Mortimer claimed to be at her door (not outside, as is often assumed, but in her doorway) for about 10 minutes. We know she was there late enough to see Leon Goldstein pass just a few minutes before 1am, so working backwards, we can estimate she was at the door from 12:46am to 12:56am.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

You'd have to ask yourself: is there anything to corroborate Schwartz's story? Is there anything contradicting his story?

This is what is frustrating about the Schwartz story...it's not so unbelievable (like Hutchinson) to make it suspicious, but there's no other witness to corroborate it. Small corroboration might be found in the fact that both of Stride's shoulders were bruised and Schwartz told the Star that BS Man grabbed her by her shoulders to throw her down. This was published BEFORE the autopsy, so he couldn't have culled it from the papers, and it's a strange detail to make up. Of course, this could all be a coincidence.

There's also no witness to contradict him. Yes, James Brown's story occurs at the same time, but as we all know, times were more estimated than anything (such as in Brown's case), and one could conversely argue that Schwartz's evidence contradicted Brown's.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fleetwood Mac]

Those who think that BS Man behaved unlike the Ripper (they're wrong)

Curious here...go on then mate....similarities?

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Tom.

"I was the first to suggest that Schwartz was a club attendee (probably not a paying member)"

As I recall, that is correct. Nice suggestion.

" . . . and got raked over the coals for it."

Not by me. I consider it good work.

"Of course, it is just a theory...has not been proved...but is possible."

Right. Like everything else.

"It still doesn't mean he didn't see what he said he saw, but intriguing nonetheless."

Quite right. His veracity is apart from his club status.

How did you score on my Socialist signature quiz (Kaufmann thread)?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Tom. Your last post--#70--neatly (and objectively) sums up just about everything one needs to say about IS and his story. Well done.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Lynn. I haven't yet seen your quiz, but will look at it soon. I'm not very good at quizzes, so don't expect much from me.

Curious here...go on then mate....similarities?

Hanbury Street. Cadosch hears two people talking softly, followed by a thud on the fence and a voice softly saying no. Schwartz sees two people talking softly, followed by one of them being thrown down and softly saying no. The Berner Street and Hanbury Street sites are extremely similar...the most similar of any two Ripper murders, and they ran in sequence. Hanbury Street even had its own Israel Schwartz in the form of Violenia, who claimed to see two men attacking Chapman, but it was later discovered that he was lying just to see the body.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Hi corey
Thanks. I am starting think you may be right.

It is a possiblity, but it is only plausable. The story, to me and others, has too many loose ends. The Cachous, the Flower, the forensics, the psychology of it, all of it raises my eyes to suspicion.