Schwartz, a fraud?

[Varqm]

You can call it what you will Varqm. My general point is that we cannot assume that Schwartz didn’t attend the Inquest because the police had no faith in him. We simply don’t know why he didn’t attend because no one at the time gave any explanation. Therefore when you claim to know that we can say for certain that you are wrong to do so. You are just stating your own opinion as a fact. I’m not doing that because I’m not claiming to know for a fact.

What I am sure about is that if I asked, some researcher like Joshua for example, could come up with examples where witnesses gave statements which differed from from other versions. These things happen for various reasons and it doesn’t follow that the witness was immediately dismissed. But what you are suggesting is that the police heard Schwartz statement and then continued to act upon it. But then during the course of the Inquest they decided that he wasn’t trustworthy and so didn’t call him. But they continue to mention him as a valid suspect at the higher levels despite dismissing him as useless. Does the really make even a modicum of sense Varqm?

There doesn’t appear to have been any great “why wasn’t Schwartz at the Inquest” outcry?

Go ahead.Last time I'll repeat.The 2 conflicting statements were enough for Schwartz to be dismissed by Baxter,or common sense,Baxter had 22 days to decide.There was the police statement and STAR interview for him to look at.The police believed otherwise,I do not know how long.The interpreter problem and Schwartz hiding were not believable reasons.The witnesses needed were sought like Mr. Stanley in Chapman's case,John Stride and Mrs Watts in the Stride case and mentioned at least.Schwartz was too important for the inquest.
The police made a mistake,sooner or later changed their minds,like with Hutchinson ,then it was only Lawende as the reliable witness.The case ended in 1892.
This is my last post on this.

[FrankO]

Michael, the only point of my sequence list in post # 651 was to show you that your proposal would look just as ridiculous as you painted out Herlock’s in post #642, basing his on Lamb’s timing of seeing 2 men running towards him “shortly before one o’clock” in an attempt to make Diemshutz’s arrival at “exactly” one o’clock look ridiculous. You seem not to have got that. But I’m glad to see that, in reality, you suggest a more realistic time for Lamb arriving in the yard.

I’m not going to bother you any longer on the subject of the Stride murder, because it’s no use. You have had your very fixed views for over a decade and aren’t going to change them. Which is fine. I just can’t get my head around how you only see & interpret part of the evidence and disregard the rest.

Like for instance this:

Issac K sees Eagle returning with Lamb as he returns...just after 1.. and joins them.

What the newspapers actually wrote is that Kozebrodski said: “I afterwards went into the Commercial road, and there along with Eagle I found two officers.” To me, that can’t mean anything else then Kozebrodski joining Eagle before they saw Lamb. It’s not clear where he joined him, in Berner Street or in Commercial Road, but it should be clear that he joined him before reaching Lamb, which is also supported by Lamb’s version of events: “two men came running to me”.

Another example is:

Louis lied about his arrival time, Fanny proves it,

In order to be able to state this with certainty, you have to know that Mortimer went back inside at 1:01 at the earliest. But you don’t know that. The best evidence you have is “between half-past twelve and one o'clock” and even this doesn’t say when she went back inside exactly, but it certainly doesn’t suggest that she went back inside after the stroke of one.

Then there are the similarities between Spooner’s and Diemshutz’s account with regards to 2 men running & shouting, not finding a PC but bringing back a man to the yard, who then lifts Stride’s face/chin. They are striking to say the least. Yet, according to you, they mean nothing because all you're capable of saying is that Louis was a liar, so he must have lied about that, too. That you don't see that this, of course, doesn't make the similarities and the inference go away, are things I simply cannot fathom.

And, yes, when you just focus on the timings of “your” favoured 3 witnesses at face value, then there might be reason to believe that something wasn’t right, and, yes, when you add that they were an anarchist club, then there might be reason to believe they would try to hide something from the police. But when I add all the other information and see the bigger picture, then the idea of some sort of cover up quickly fades as far as I’m concerned.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a naive question.
Again:

Coroners act 1887:

It shall be the duty of the coroner in case of murder or manslaughter to put into writing the statement on oath
of those who know the facts and circumstance of the case,or so much of such statement as is material,and any such
deposition shall be signed by the witness and also by the coroner.

Read the inquests and learn.
What did these witness do that is more important than Schwartz.

Nichols inquest:
Walter Purkiss
Alfred Malshaw
Emily Holland
Mary Ann Monk

Chapman inquest:
Elizabeth Long
Tomothy Donovan
Eliza Cooper

Eddowes inquest:
Lawende
Joseph Lawende
Frederick William Wilkinson

You can call it what you will Varqm. My general point is that we cannot assume that Schwartz didn’t attend the Inquest because the police had no faith in him. We simply don’t know why he didn’t attend because no one at the time gave any explanation. Therefore when you claim to know that we can say for certain that you are wrong to do so. You are just stating your own opinion as a fact. I’m not doing that because I’m not claiming to know for a fact.

What I am sure about is that if I asked, some researcher like Joshua for example, could come up with examples where witnesses gave statements which differed from from other versions. These things happen for various reasons and it doesn’t follow that the witness was immediately dismissed. But what you are suggesting is that the police heard Schwartz statement and then continued to act upon it. But then during the course of the Inquest they decided that he wasn’t trustworthy and so didn’t call him. But they continue to mention him as a valid suspect at the higher levels despite dismissing him as useless. Does the really make even a modicum of sense Varqm?

There doesn’t appear to have been any great “why wasn’t Schwartz at the Inquest” outcry?

[Varqm]

I have to ask again Varqm. At an inquiry looking into the ‘how’ and ‘when’ she died what information of vital importance would Schwartz have been able to add?

This is a naive question.
Again:

Coroners act 1887:

It shall be the duty of the coroner in case of murder or manslaughter to put into writing the statement on oath
of those who know the facts and circumstance of the case,or so much of such statement as is material,and any such
deposition shall be signed by the witness and also by the coroner.

Read the inquests and learn.
What did these witness do that is more important than Schwartz.

Nichols inquest:
Walter Purkiss
Alfred Malshaw
Emily Holland
Mary Ann Monk

Chapman inquest:
Elizabeth Long
Tomothy Donovan
Eliza Cooper

Eddowes inquest:
Lawende
Joseph Lawende
Frederick William Wilkinson

[Joshua Rogan]

Johnson said just after 1, so........and he was at home...but I guess for the Herlocks, he didnt have access to timepieces either.

I think he was reported as saying "a few minutes past one o'clock" in the Telegraph and Morning Advertiser, and "About five or ten minutes past 1" by the Times. Neither of which is precise enough to conclude that he consciously noted the time of the PCs call.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. And your Ripper who doesnt Rip sometimes. Your interruptions without any validation in evidence,

Anyone labouring the ‘evidence of interruption’ drivel gives up all right to be taken seriously. There are toddlers out there that understand why it’s nonsense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ive never said times were fixed, Ive always said the men who said they were summoned to the yard was at between 12:40 and 12:45...never said Spooner was precisely at 12:35..like your fella Louis felt compelled to add....never said that a few minutes either was was a problem. I do wish you would quit misrepresenting everything everyone I and everyone else says...maybe just leave their quotes alone and try and make your own argument,... if you cant be accurate that is.

You seem to be claiming victory here by calling the majority of the corroborated timings all incorrect by 20 minutes....thats a victory for you huh? Call everyone a liar and then smirk?

Youve been proven incorrect, inaccurate and naive...I wont bother showing those quotes and misrepresenting them though.. Ill just let other people read what you wrote.

Victory was claimed long ago because your theory is a non-starter which has been dismissed by everyone that’s heard it. You are blind to this fact though. How long have you been going on about this? Do you think that no one has looked into it? What’s the verdict Michael.

You are the one misrepresenting Michael because you are hopelessly biased. I keep asking why you don't assess but simply select to suit but not once have you responded properly. I’ll use a very simplified question:

WHEN YOU LOOK AT SPOONER’S STATEMENT WHY DO YOU ACCEPT THE ‘12.35’ PART BUT COMPLETELY DISREGARD THE ‘5 MINUTES BEFORE LAMB’ PART?

We all know the answer btw but hey you might give an straight response for a change.

[Michael W Richards]

OK, doing the same sort of exercise (sticking to the exact timings as given by the newspaper/inquest statements) for the period between half past 12 and a little after one o’clock, then this is what your proposal would look like, Michael:

• 12.30 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep, but doesn’t see Charles Letchford pass Fine, not relevant
• Ca. 12.31 am Mortimer goes back insideFine
• Ca. 12.32 am Stide & companion arrive opposite the club/Mortimer’s house Speculative
• Ca. 12.33 am PC Smith sees Stride & companion opposite the club Fine
• Ca. 12.34 am Mr. Harris hears a policeman’s whistle Not relevant
• 12.35 am Spooner runs to the yard, where he sees about 15 people Closer to 12:40
• Ca. 12.36 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep againSpeculative
• Ca. 12.38 am Mortimer goes back insideSpeculative
• Ca. 12.39 am Diemshutz arrives in the yard & discovers Stride’s body Likely
• 12.40 am Diemshutz goes inside & brings Kozebrodski to the yard and then sends him for a policeman, just as 2 other unknown Jews go running & shouting for a PC Thats the story Issac gives and 3 others were also there along with quite a few others
• 12.40 am Eagle enters the club by the side door but doesn’t stumble over Stride’s bodyEagle comes in and finds everyone there, he lies about it...and hedges his statement just in case hes caught.
• 12.40 am Gilleman goes upstairs and alerts EagleEagles words, which can be discarded if we know he is already lying about what happened when he arrives
• Ca. 12.41 am Brown leaves his house to get some supper and walks west along Fairclough Street towards Berner StreetBrown is only relevant to corroborate the young couple
• Ca. 12.42 am the 2 unknown Jews return to the yard without a policeman but with SpoonerFine
• 12.45 am Brown leaves the chandler’s shop and sees a couple standing by the board schoolNot relevant
• 12.45 am Heshburg hears a policeman’s whistleNot relevant
• Ca. 12.50 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again...Yes
• Ca. 12.55 am Mortimer sees Leon Goldstein pass Yes
• Ca. 1 am Eagle finally goes into the yard & sees Stride’s body Already dealt with him above, his "peel mell' trip down the stairs is akin to Schwartz's incontinent fleeing...dramatic but not accurate.
• Ca. 1 am PC Lamb arrives in the yard & sees about 30 people, but Mortimer doesn’t see him pass her door Arrives just after 1, like he said..she is inside
• 1:00:59 am Mortimer locks up & goes back inside
• Ca. 1.02 am Mortimer hears a pony cart passWhose cart and horse, and which direction? If you dont know, not relevant
• Ca. 1.03 am Mortimer hears commotion/call for police & then goes outside to see what’s the matter Fine

Does this sound about right to you?

Sometime between 12:40 and 1am Louis and Morris go for help in different directions, Issac K sees Eagle returning with Lamb as he returns...just after 1.. and joins them.

This all has become so tedious Franko, no offense, but if you or anyone else cant accept that Louis and Morris decided how the timeline should be presented because their livelihoods were in peril, then I cant help you. And Im tired of explaining how people work to what should be knowledgeable grown ups. If dont cant get human nature and defensive lying...you probably shouldnt be reading material that requires interpretation based on some of that knowledge.

Louis lied about his arrival time, Fanny proves it, and Eagle doesnt say that Liz isnt there when he arrives at 12:40. He says he might have missed seeing her...which is, like Louis statement, a lie. He would have been unable to miss her...let alone the bunch of men gathering there.

I suppose this is all because people cant accept Stride is not a Ripper victim...which is shockingly obvious to me and others....and that the club full of anarchists and low men as seen and heard by neighbors often after meetings would lie to protect their incomes. Again, a shockingly obvious position to take...except here apparently.

WHAT IVE SAID ABOUT THIS MURDER HAS BEEN TWISTED, MISREPRESENTED, AND DISTORTED TO TRY AND SCORE BROWNIE POINTS I IMAGINE, IF ANYONE WANTS THE TRUTH OF WHAT I SAID THEY CAN READ THE POSTS THAT ARE NOT YET MISREPRESENTED BY UNSCRUPULOUS CHARACTERS, MORE INTERESTED IN FEELING CORRECT THEMSELVES, RATHER THAN SOLVING ANYTHING.

Im pretty sure that Ive been studying these cases longer than you, Herlock or anyone else who cant understand what is written and recorded. Ive read all the articles, the authors opinions, the press accounts, period histories, biographies...numerous times. And having to suffer through arguments with people that "obviously" have not done that research, or dont get it, is tiresome now.

Have your angelic anarchists who just want to help others. And your Ripper who doesnt Rip sometimes. Your interruptions without any validation in evidence, your star witness who is left out of the Inquest completely, and your group error by 4 people all getting the story wrong by exactly the same 20 minutes.

Its just so obvious after all isnt it?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael doesn’t understand or accept this though Joshua. To him if someone says ‘around 3.00’ then that’s it. If someone else says 3.05 then it’s a lie therefore a cover up.

Ive never said times were fixed, Ive always said the men who said they were summoned to the yard was at between 12:40 and 12:45...never said Spooner was precisely at 12:35..like your fella Louis felt compelled to add....never said that a few minutes either was was a problem. I do wish you would quit misrepresenting everything everyone I and everyone else says...maybe just leave their quotes alone and try and make your own argument,... if you cant be accurate that is.

You seem to be claiming victory here by calling the majority of the corroborated timings all incorrect by 20 minutes....thats a victory for you huh? Call everyone a liar and then smirk?

Youve been proven incorrect, inaccurate and naive...I wont bother showing those quotes and misrepresenting them though.. Ill just let other people read what you wrote.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm pretty sure Johnson learned of the murder at the same time as Blackwell, ie around 1:10 by Blackwell's timing, since he went back to the yard with the PC who informed them both. Which means he would have arrived at the yard around 1:12. Blackwell following once he had dressed, arriving 1:16
Lamb estimated that he had been there 10-12 minutes when Blackwell arrived, so somewhere around 01:04 to 01:06 would seem likely. Which seems reasonably in line with Louis' avowed discovery time.

However, as Lamb himself admitted " I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time."

Johnson said just after 1, so........and he was at home...but I guess for the Herlocks, he didnt have access to timepieces either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There was an interpreter when he made his first police statement - whoever the interpreter was would suffice, and also when he did the STAR interview,they have local people,universities,etc..His sighting was too important.They had several days to do the inquest.It would not have taken that long,the sighting was 1-2 minutes long,there would have been no problem.

I have to ask again Varqm. At an inquiry looking into the ‘how’ and ‘when’ she died what information of vital importance would Schwartz have been able to add?

[c.d.]

Hello Varqm,

This is copied from another post I wrote. The problem is not in finding an interpreter.

Coroner to Schwartz: What did the woman say to the man?

Interpreter: He doesn't know. He doesn't understand English.

Coroner to Schwartz: What did the man say to the woman?

Interpreter: He doesn't know. He doesn't understand English.

c.d.

[Varqm]

First of all, Hungarian is a very complex language, there also are various local dialects which make translating it quite difficult, even for a native speaker. Second, it is not proven that Schwartz really was a native to Hungary, his name sounds more German with a Slavic background to me. How he ended up being a Hungarian Jew is also not not known, he could have simply ended up in Hungary like so many other Jews who fled the Russian pogroms and spoke a mix of Russian, Hungarian and Yiddish, which would have required a translator with quite specific language skills.

In order to answer the questions at an inquest, you have to have a basic knowledge of the English language. You not only have to be able to answer the Coroner's questions but also contextual questions by the Jury, and this is impossible if you are unable to follow the conversation due to language barriers. A possible interpreter not only would have had to speak the exact idiom of Schwartz but also would have had to translate all comments by everyone present at the inquest to enable him to answer the questions posed to him to the best of his ability. I think we both agree that this would not have been possible without prologing the inquest to ridiculous dimensions, that is why Wynne Baxter most probably went with the written statement Schwartz made to the police.

There was an interpreter when he made his first police statement - whoever the interpreter was would suffice, and also when he did the STAR interview,they have local people,universities,etc..His sighting was too important.They had several days to do the inquest.It would not have taken that long,the sighting was 1-2 minutes long,there would have been no problem.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder if Michael can explain how, if Diemschutz discovered the body at 12.35 and he and other members then went into conference to decide on a plan of action to ensure that the police didn’t accuse them of hosting the latest ripper murder, did Spooner get to the yard at 12.35? Perhaps Diemschutz sent him a text?

Could this cover up get any deader?

[Herlock Sholmes]

OK, doing the same sort of exercise (sticking to the exact timings as given by the newspaper/inquest statements) for the period between half past 12 and a little after one o’clock, then this is what your proposal would look like, Michael:

• 12.30 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep, but doesn’t see Charles Letchford pass
• Ca. 12.31 am Mortimer goes back inside
• Ca. 12.32 am Stide & companion arrive opposite the club/Mortimer’s house
• Ca. 12.33 am PC Smith sees Stride & companion opposite the club
• Ca. 12.34 am Mr. Harris hears a policeman’s whistle
• 12.35 am Spooner runs to the yard, where he sees about 15 people
• Ca. 12.36 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again
• Ca. 12.38 am Mortimer goes back inside
• Ca. 12.39 am Diemshutz arrives in the yard & discovers Stride’s body
• 12.40 am Diemshutz goes inside & brings Kozebrodski to the yard and then sends him for a policeman, just as 2 other unknown Jews go running & shouting for a PC
• 12.40 am Eagle enters the club by the side door but doesn’t stumble over Stride’s body
• 12.40 am Gilleman goes upstairs and alerts Eagle
• Ca. 12.41 am Brown leaves his house to get some supper and walks west along Fairclough Street towards Berner Street
• Ca. 12.42 am the 2 unknown Jews return to the yard without a policeman but with Spooner
• 12.45 am Brown leaves the chandler’s shop and sees a couple standing by the board school
• 12.45 am Heshburg hears a policeman’s whistle
• Ca. 12.50 am Mortimer goes to her doorstep again
• Ca. 12.55 am Mortimer sees Leon Goldstein pass
• Ca. 1 am Eagle finally goes into the yard & sees Stride’s body
• Ca. 1 am PC Lamb arrives in the yard & sees about 30 people, but Mortimer doesn’t see him pass her door
• 1:00:59 am Mortimer locks up & goes back inside
• Ca. 1.02 am Mortimer hears a pony cart pass
• Ca. 1.03 am Mortimer hears commotion/call for police & then goes outside to see what’s the matter

Does this sound about right to you?

Cracked it Frank