Schwartz, a fraud?

[moonbegger]

Greg[/QUOTE]

Sorry Abby but I have to disagree here. 99% of all humans are cowards. People have been assaulted time and again in broad daylight in major cities and no one does anything. It's the same mentality that allows millions of Germans to look the other way when the Jews are being sent to the death camps. For Schwartz to have gotten involved would have been an exceptional action. Besides, a woman being assaulted in Whitechapel was probably commonplace...........


Hi Greg ,

i find this " 99% of all humans are cowards " malarkey, very interesting .. So here is my question to you Greg ,
If YOU was walking down the street and you saw a woman or a child for that matter being attacked or beaten by a man .. Would you ( A ) make some attempt to help ( B ) Stick around and make some verbal interjection , until someone else intervene or (C) Run away and hide .. I would be very interested to see your answer .
And just for your information Greg .. Millions of Germans Didn't look the other way .. They really had no idea ( propaganda can be a powerful tool )

Cheers ,
Moonbegger .

[Debra A]

Interesting and imaginative idea, Bridewell and Debs. To my ears and eyes “tőr“ {“te-er“} and “cső“ {s-ch-e-e“} don't sound too similar, unless the Star translator was hard of hearing and in a hurry.

Pass me the cotton buds someone. My ears obviously need a good clean-out.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs and Colin,

You might try comparing the Yiddish to Hungarian for knife and pipe, since the Star reporter's translator and Schwartz's friend was apparently speaking in Hungarian, and Abberline's might have worked in Yiddish.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

assessments

Hello Maria. Well, a report I read indicated that Schwartz was more likely to have seen the killer than PC Smith.

On the other hand, the local station were not enthusiastic. (Yes, I believe that was in the "Star.")

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Like I said, in Hungarian there's a possibility that "dagger" and "pipe" can be mixed up acoustically (esp. if someone pronounces/hears the initial "t" and "s-tsch" similarly), in spoken or (written) Yiddish, NOT a chance.

I agree that Abberline might have had a Yiddish translator (possibly even a member of the IWEC) vs. the Star's (documentedly bad) Hungarian translator.

[Bridewell]

As for the "Lizzie" debate, "Lipski" having been Schwartz' "nickname" and whatnot, please! Abberline was real experienced in the Whitechapel environment and interviewed Schwartz numerous times on this, also at the request of the HO. It makes sense to trust him on the meaning of "Lipski".

Hi Maria,

I take the point, but I posted what I did in the context of the thread, which proposes the possibility of Schwatrz's account being fraudulent. If fraudulent, there must have been a motive for its being so.

I'm aware of the suggestion that there may have been a desire, on the part of some, to draw attention away from the IWEC. However, the Stride murder occurred right outside their premises so (a) how likely was that to succeed? and (b) how would the creation of an additional (fictional) violent event at the same location around the same time achieve that end?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Mine Too!

Pass me the cotton buds someone. My ears obviously need a good clean-out.

Hi Debs,

Mine too - and my wife's who also heard the two words!

Regards, Bridewell.

[mariab]

Hello Bridewell,
The "Lizzie" debate is pretty old. No idea who initially came up with this in Ripperology.

(a) how likely was that to succeed?

Well, it did succeed up to a significant point. "Lipski" was very instrumental to this in my opinion (in Abberline's and the HO's interpretation).

(b) how would the creation of an additional (fictional) violent event at the same location around the same time achieve that end?

I'm not considering the possibility that the BS/Pipeman event was necessarily entirely fictional. Please remember that Pipeman fits a suspect's physical description who was also a member of the WVC, who documentedly had approached the IWEC to use their rooms for meetings. This is still being researched, though I'm having several specific thoughts.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Bridewell,

Schwartz's evidence gave the police two non-Jewish suspects - Pipeman and BS Man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

reasons

Hello Colin.

"However, the Stride murder occurred right outside their premises so (a) how likely was that to succeed? and (b) how would the creation of an additional (fictional) violent event at the same location around the same time achieve that end?"

Well, it seems to me that:

1. They were more than happy to have a tale that cried, "Drunken, domestic brawl."

2. They were more than happy to have a gentile as the villain, one who was discourteous enough to hurl an anti-semitic racial slur.

Cheers,
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Prior residence

Hello all,

I was thinking about witnesses who are afraid to come forward and it struck me that "Fleeing Incontinently" Israel was quite brave to have come forward at all considering that his Broadshouldered Man and Pipeman had a good look at him and his new street address made the papers.

The Immigrant Jew who spoke no English, who was on the street outside a club for Immigrant Jews, (many of whom spoke no English), shortly after a public meeting had ended, stated via translation that he was checking to see if his wife had finished moving what must have been very meager belongings to their new digs on Ellen Street. At 12:45am. He had been gone since noon.

Does anyone recall reading anywhere the address that he was moving from? Or how long he had been staying in London? Perhaps someone has located him in earlier census data?

Thanks in advance,
Mike R

[Bridewell]

Does anyone recall reading anywhere the address that he was moving from? Or how long he had been staying in London? Perhaps someone has located him in earlier census data?

Thanks in advance,
Mike R

Hi Michael,

I've not been able to find him in the 1891 census when he might be expected still to be in the UK. I have also checked 1881 (without success) but I'm not aware of any suggestion that he had arrived by then. I don't know if anyone else has enjoyed greater success.

Regards, Bridewell.

[mariab]

Does anyone recall reading anywhere the address that he was moving from?

From “Berner Street“ unspecifically. Either he didn't say which house number (which I very much doubt) or he gave it to the police and we don't have record of this. There's a possibility he and his wife were temporarily living at the IWEC, which accounts for the police having been suspicious of his testimony initially.

Or how long he had been staying in London? Perhaps someone has located him in earlier census data?

As far as I know, noone has located Schwartz in the 1881 census. If anyone has, it'd be nice if they came forward. If he lived at the IWEC, it's most plausible that he had recently moved to London.

I've not been able to find him in the 1891 census when he might be expected still to be in the UK.

There's an Israel Schwartz researched by Gavin Bromley and Chris Phillips who lived nearby, but was from Russian/Polish extraction, not Hungarian.
There's a Nathan Schwartz with a son named Israel. Interestingly enough, the Hungarian anarchist orator Schwartz connected to William Wess in 1902-1905 is listed in a secret French police report as “N. Schwartz“. (Though in another police report the exact same anarchist is listed as “A. Schwartz“.) I'm planning on looking through Jewish databases later on. I don't subscribe to Ancestry presently, later on. My search in the Arbeter Fraint for the relevant years (1902-1905) (in Yiddish), proved fruitless, as they avoid to mention members by name.

PS.: Roy Cordyroy has recently found an interesting match for an anarchist “A. Schwartz“ by the way.

[Stephen Thomas]

which accounts for the police having been suspicious of his testimony initially.

Like how?

[mariab]

Just a feeling. Referring both to what the Star claimed, to the fact that Swanson felt the need to include in his report (paraphrasing) “There's no reason to doubt the witness' testimony“ (as if the question had already been raised), and the fact that Schwartz avoided the press very carefully. (With help from others? From the police? From Wess, who was interviewed about Schwartz in The Echo/The Scotsman?)
Haven't had the time to compare how often Lawende appeared in the press vs. Schwartz. But compared to Mortimer, ouch!
Plus, we don't really know why Schwartz is not listed at the inquest.