A photograph of Joseph Lawende in 1899

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

But Lawende wasn’t making that SPECIFIC point. He just said ‘loose fitting.’ That’s all. He didn’t say “a loose fitting jacket that wasn’t designed to be buttoned and that was commonly worn by sailors,” did he?! I’m walking into a brick wall here.


Lawende did not say the jacket was loose-fitting.



Loose fitting describes the fit of the coat (as opposed to tight-fitting - which also wouldn’t describe a style of coat either) and not the style of coat.



On the contrary, Lawende described it as a loose jacket, not a loose-fitting jacket.




You are making an unwarranted assumption.



I don't think I am.

I have posted more than a dozen illustrations of loose jackets worn by sailors.

I know the idea of any reader agreeing with me is unthinkable to you, but I suggest you would have a hard time finding readers who would agree with you that all the models happened to be so stout or their jackets just happened to be so undersized that they couldn't button them up.

It was indeed a style.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

‘Loose Jacket’ is not a style. Every single person on the planet understands this apart from you.

Tomorrow, go into any clothes shop you choose and say to the assistant: “I’d like a loose jacket.”

First, you’ll notice the slightly confused look on his or her face. Then he/she will say “do you have any particular style of loose jacket in mind?”

Then you say “ well obviously I just mean a loose jacket. Surely you can immediately picture exactly what a loose jacket looks like. You should be able to go over to the racks, pick up a jacket and say ‘here you are sir, this is the kind of jacket you asked for.”

If you can’t see and understand the problem with the point that you’re making then I give up. Ask someone else. If you find someone that agrees with you I’ll proclaim you a genius.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

‘Loose Jacket’ is not a style. Every single person on the planet understands this apart from you.

Tomorrow, go into any clothes shop you choose and say to the assistant: “I’d like a loose jacket.”

First, you’ll notice the slightly confused look on his or her face. Then he/she will say “do you have any particular style of loose jacket in mind?”

Then you say “ well obviously I just mean a loose jacket. Surely you can immediately picture exactly what a loose jacket looks like. You should be able to go over to the racks, pick up a jacket and say ‘here you are sir, this is the kind of jacket you asked for.”

If you can’t see and understand the problem with the point that you’re making then I give up. Ask someone else. If you find someone that agrees with you I’ll proclaim you a genius.

You have shifted your position - haven't you?

First you claimed that Lawende said the man wore a loose-fitting jacket, but now you say it was a loose jacket.

But then you imply that it makes no difference.


I will leave readers with two questions:

If Lawende was referring only to the way the jacket fitted the man, on account of its size or his build, why did he not say it was loose-fitting?

Is it just a coincidence that I can find so many illustrations of sailors with open jackets which obviously are designed not to be buttoned at the front, and that Lawende described the jacket as loose?

[Abby Normal]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

In that case, perhaps you are looking for a theatrical person like Israel Schwartz.

But don't tell Elamarna.

It might be difficult to have Schwartz identifying himself at the Seaside Home.

[Herlock Sholmes]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

I’d say that it has to be a possibility Abby. It can’t be any stretch of the imagination to suggest that the killer would have wanted to reduce his chances of being identified. I also think that it’s worth mentioning that not only can clothing affect appearance but it can also effect a witnesses assessment of a persons build. If a guy puts on say, two or three shirts, a waistcoat, a scarf and a thick jacket to coat it might cause a slim guy to get described as stocky.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have shifted your position - haven't you?

First you claimed that Lawende said the man wore a loose-fitting jacket, but now you say it was a loose jacket.


But then you imply that it makes no difference.

it doesn’t. Loose and loose fitting mean exactly the same thing!!


I will leave readers with two questions:

If Lawende was referring only to the way the jacket fitted the man, on account of its size or his build, why did he not say it was loose-fitting?

Its like explaining the rules of backgammon to a child! If I wear a coat and I describe it as ‘loose’ it means that it’s loose fitting. For Christ’s sake PI you’ll argue that black is white. Ask someone else! Any human being you choose. Anywhere. Every single one will tell you that you’re wrong. Get the message before we all end up in a padded cell.!!!!

Is it just a coincidence that I can find so many illustrations of sailors with open jackets which obviously are designed not to be buttoned at the front, and that Lawende described the jacket as loose?

No, not a coincidence. Entirely unconnected.

ASK SOMEONE ELSE. FIND ME ONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING OUTSIDE OF A LUNATIC ASYLUM AND WHO ISN'T 4 YEARS OLD THAT AGREES WITH YOU. DONT ASK ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU CAN PRODUCE SOMEONE THAT BELIEVES THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ON THIS POINT.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

c

No, not a coincidence. Entirely unconnected.

ASK SOMEONE ELSE. FIND ME ONE SINGLE HUMAN BEING OUTSIDE OF A LUNATIC ASYLUM AND WHO ISN'T 4 YEARS OLD THAT AGREES WITH YOU. DONT ASK ME AGAIN UNTIL YOU CAN PRODUCE SOMEONE THAT BELIEVES THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ON THIS POINT.

I think most people would agree with me that it should be possible to have an exchange of views without referring to padded cells or lunatic asylums.

I think they would also agree that the collection of illustrations of sailor jackets I have uploaded - whether you want to call them loose or loose-fitting - are evidence of a style of jacket which was popular among sailors.

That style of jacket was obviously not intended to be buttoned up and that meant that it was necessarily loose.

Lawende described the man as wearing a loose jacket and having the appearance of a sailor.

There is nothing farfetched about suggesting that the suspect wore a jacket of a similar style to those in the illustrations, and nothing to warrant mention of padded cells or lunatic asylums.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think most people would agree with me that it should be possible to have an exchange of views without referring to padded cells or lunatic asylums.

I think they would also agree that the collection of illustrations of sailor jackets I have uploaded - whether you want to call them loose or loose-fitting - are evidence of a style of jacket which was popular among sailors.

That style of jacket was obviously not intended to be buttoned up and that meant that it was necessarily loose.

Lawende described the man as wearing a loose jacket and having the appearance of a sailor.

There is nothing farfetched about suggesting that the suspect wore a jacket of a similar style to those in the illustrations, and nothing to warrant mention of padded cells or lunatic asylums.

Produce someone that agrees with you on the point in question.

[Darryl Kenyon]

all this talk has made me wonder if the ripper didnt dress up a bit/ disguise/change his appearance on nights he was def out hunting? army ( tabram), Navy/sailor (double event) and toff (kelly).

Exactly Abby . I am sure that Jack would have passed himself off as someone with a few pennies and perhaps someone who would put the poor victims minds at ease.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

I think most people would agree with me that it should be possible to have an exchange of views without referring to padded cells or lunatic asylums.

I think they would also agree that the collection of illustrations of sailor jackets I have uploaded - whether you want to call them loose or loose-fitting - are evidence of a style of jacket which was popular among sailors.

That style of jacket was obviously not intended to be buttoned up and that meant that it was necessarily loose.

Lawende described the man as wearing a loose jacket and having the appearance of a sailor.

There is nothing farfetched about suggesting that the suspect wore a jacket of a similar style to those in the illustrations, and nothing to warrant mention of padded cells or lunatic asylums.

Unfortunately PI your examples of sailor jackets all seem to be the traditional colour - Blue. Hence navy serge jackets being a shade of blue. When Lawende said salt and pepper colour loose jacket. Google salt and pepper jackets and they all seem to be a greyish colour with perhaps flecks of white.

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Produce someone that agrees with you on the point in question.

The Engineer Lieutenant who left the Wardroom after dinner did not immediately go on deck. He went first to his cabin, where he filled and lit a pipe, and changed his mess-jacket for a comfortable loose-fitting monkey jacket.

(Naval Occasions, and Some Traits of the Sailor-man, By Bartimeus)


The illustrations I uploaded are of sailors' monkey jackets.


I described them as loose.

Bartimeus described a loose-fitting monkey jacket.

Lawende described the jacket worn by a man with the appearance of a sailor as loose.


I suggest the term loose or loose-fitting refers to the jacket not being buttoned up - and therefore tight - at the front, and not to its being oversized.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

The Engineer Lieutenant who left the Wardroom after dinner did not immediately go on deck. He went first to his cabin, where he filled and lit a pipe, and changed his mess-jacket for a comfortable loose-fitting monkey jacket.

(Naval Occasions, and Some Traits of the Sailor-man, By Bartimeus)


The illustrations I uploaded are of sailors' monkey jackets.


I described them as loose.

Bartimeus described a loose-fitting monkey jacket.

Lawende described the jacket worn by a man with the appearance of a sailor as loose.


I suggest the term loose or loose-fitting refers to the jacket not being buttoned up - and therefore tight - at the front, and not to its being oversized.

very warm clothing will be required in passing the Cape ... a sailor's loose monkey jacket ... Sailors' jackets are very convenient on board, and a few of dark jean, made loose, will be found desirable.

(The Land of Promise: Being an Authentic and Impartial History of the Rise ...
By John Stephens)



More loose sailor's monkey jackets.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Engineer Lieutenant who left the Wardroom after dinner did not immediately go on deck. He went first to his cabin, where he filled and lit a pipe, and changed his mess-jacket for a comfortable loose-fitting monkey jacket.

(Naval Occasions, and Some Traits of the Sailor-man, By Bartimeus)


The illustrations I uploaded are of sailors' monkey jackets.


I described them as loose.

Bartimeus described a loose-fitting monkey jacket.

Lawende described the jacket worn by a man with the appearance of a sailor as loose.


I suggest the term loose or loose-fitting refers to the jacket not being buttoned up - and therefore tight - at the front, and not to its being oversized.

I’ve been a member here for nearly 6 years. My next post will be my 15000th. I’ve seen many excellent posts, many average ones, many poor ones (imo of course as other might agree or disagree on any post) and quite a few apocalyptically poor ones.

Of the latter type I can now add yours.

Absolutely jaw-droppingly poor. I can’t even bring myself to explain why this is nonsense. Please, someone tell him.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I’ve been a member here for nearly 6 years. My next post will be my 15000th. I’ve seen many excellent posts, many average ones, many poor ones (imo of course as other might agree or disagree on any post) and quite a few apocalyptically poor ones.

Of the latter type I can now add yours.

Absolutely jaw-droppingly poor. I can’t even bring myself to explain why this is nonsense. Please, someone tell him.

Thanks for your reply, but merely saying that someone else's post is poor is not a substitute for reasoned argument.

I could say the same about your posts, but I don't.