A photograph of Joseph Lawende in 1899

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.


It seems then that Lawende imagined it.



A ‘loose’ jacket isn’t a type of jacket.

https://images.app.goo.gl/Sz6fWdJk9V7613Dr6

A Victorian era Sailors cap - and please don’t try the cop out of mentioning the insignia, they can easily be removed. It doesn’t matter where it’s from either. A hat could be bought at any market or pawnshop.

A number of witness descriptions of suspects mentioned caps, but they did not mention sailor caps nor sailor hats, let alone naval insignia.

Lawende mentioned a cap.

That has no connection with sailors.


Your point is about as reasonable as the one where you said that any Jewish man would have been readily identifiable as a Jewish man even after we had posted dozens of examples of Jewish men that didn’t look remotely Jewish.

I intend to deal with that issue shortly.

I said that Jews and gentiles were easily distinguishable in Whitechapel in 1888 and I believe I can prove that.



Please don’t talk to me again on this subject. It’s barking mad, no one else will agree with you, but you keep on about it obsessively.

I repeat……it’s a non-point. With that…I’ll hand you over to anyone else who wants the headache.



I don't think that's a fair comment.

You challenged me to produce evidence when you wrote:

Strange then that I’ve looked at around 100 photographs to date of Victorian sailors and not one of them was wearing a loose jacket.

I have produced more than a dozen illustrations of sailors wearing waist-length, loose-fitting jackets, open at the front, as I had described them.

Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors.

Moreover, the illustrations I uploaded do not even show sailors wearing caps.

You say that no-one will agree with me.

I think they will agree with me that Lawende reported that he saw a man wearing a pepper & salt colour loose jacket.

I do not think they will agree with you when you write:

You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.

The information about sailors wearing salt and pepper loose jackets comes from a Whitechapel resident.

I don't think you have a right to accuse anyone of making that up and I think most people would agree with me about that too.

[rjpalmer]

"Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors."

I tend to think you're mistaken, P.I.

William Marshall, a witness at the Stride inquest, described a suspect seen in Berner Street that same night wearing:

"A round cap with a sort of peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear." (The Times, 6 October)

If you suspect a sailor, I don't know why you would be so eager to undermine your own theory by ignoring that two different witnesses that night--at two different crimes scenes--both described a man wearing a cap with a short bill, and both used the word sailor to describe the man, one specifically in reference to his headgear.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
You cannot be taken seriously. There is no such thing as a Salt and Pepper jacket. You are making it up.


It seems then that Lawende imagined it.

No. How many times does this have to be explained to you. Describing something as a ‘salt and pepper’ jacket is no better than describing a short as ‘cotton,’ or some trousers as ‘brown.’ There is no such thing as a salt and pepper jacket. You could have a jacket of that type of material but it could have been in numerous styles so it’s no more descriptive or specific than describing an items colour. Please tell me that you can understand PI. Just try Googling. You won’t find a ‘salt and pepper’ style jacket.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.


I have produced more than a dozen illustrations of sailors wearing waist-length, loose-fitting jackets, open at the front, as I had described them.

‘Loose fitting’ doesn’t describe a style PI. It describes the coats fit. You can have a ‘loose fitting’ coat that is only loose fitting because it’s too large for the owner. If I put my jacket onto Caz or Ms D, I could then accurately describe it to you (if you couldn’t see it) as ‘loose fitting,’ but you wouldn’t be able to tell me what type of coat it was just from that description.

Try and understand this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors.

Dealt with by Roger in #377

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

You say that no-one will agree with me.

Find one person on this forum that agrees with you on this point PI. That should tell you something. But you have this Sailor fixation and your trying to shoehorn everything to fit that.

[jason_c]

I always took 'appearance of a sailor' to be roughly what a Victorian merchant seaman might wear. I'm not sure I'd know a 19th century merchant seaman from a Morris dancer, but a sailors appearance must have meant something to those of the LVP. The cap rjpalmer posted does kinda look what I'd imagine such a seaman might wear. Maybe because my preferred candidate isn't a sailor I assumed Lawrence's description was of a general impression rather definitively calling the man he saw a sailor. Also, I have a sneaky feeling the man Lawende saw looked physically healthier than many locals. This may have played into the sailor description.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I always took 'appearance of a sailor' to be roughly what a Victorian merchant seaman might wear. I'm not sure I'd know a 19th century merchant seaman from a Morris dancer, but a sailors appearance must have meant something to those of the LVP. The cap rjpalmer posted does kinda look what I'd imagine such a seaman might wear. Maybe because my preferred candidate isn't a sailor I assumed Lawrence's description was of a general impression rather definitively calling the man he saw a sailor. Also, I have a sneaky feeling the man Lawende saw looked physically healthier than many locals. This may have played into the sailor description.

One detail which seems to escape attention is that Lawende described him as having a round neck.

I wonder whether that could have influenced him too.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"Your claim that Lawende's statement that the suspect had the appearance of a sailor was influenced by the fact that he was wearing a cap is, as I have stated, mistaken because it was an ordinary cap, not of the kind worn by sailors."

I tend to think you're mistaken, P.I.

William Marshall, a witness at the Stride inquest, described a suspect seen in Berner Street that same night wearing:

"A round cap with a sort of peak to it, something like what a sailor would wear." (The Times, 6 October)

If you suspect a sailor, I don't know why you would be so eager to undermine your own theory by ignoring that two different witnesses that night--at two different crimes scenes--both described a man wearing a cap with a short bill, and both used the word sailor to describe the man, one specifically in reference to his headgear.

Well, since we cannot see the cap that Lawende saw, it may be I am wrong and it did influence him.

Shall we say then that Lawende may have been influenced by all three items of clothing: the cap, the neckerchief, and the loose jacket?

And of course, it may be that there was something about his build or stance that suggested to Lawende that he was a sailor - perhaps including his round neck.

[Abby Normal]

Well, since we cannot see the cap that Lawende saw, it may be I am wrong and it did influence him.

Shall we say then that Lawende may have been influenced by all three items of clothing: the cap, the neckerchief, and the loose jacket?

And of course, it may be that there was something about his build or stance that suggested to Lawende that he was a sailor - perhaps including his round neck.

what is this "round neck" you speak of? lol

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

what is this "round neck" you speak of? lol

I would not dream of doing to you, Abby, what Elamarna did to me and replying, Look it up.

The round neck was mentioned by Lawende, as recorded by Swanson.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

‘Loose fitting’ doesn’t describe a style PI. It describes the coats fit. You can have a ‘loose fitting’ coat that is only loose fitting because it’s too large for the owner. If I put my jacket onto Caz or Ms D, I could then accurately describe it to you (if you couldn’t see it) as ‘loose fitting,’ but you wouldn’t be able to tell me what type of coat it was just from that description.

Try and understand this.

I think you are the one who needs to try to understand.

Anyone viewing the illustrations I uploaded can see that the jackets displayed were designed to be loose in the sense that they were open at the front and not intended to be buttoned up.

Double-breasted jackets necessarily have overlapping jacket fronts.

Standard single breasted jackets are also designed to be buttoned up.

It is quite obvious that those sailor jackets were not intended to be buttoned up, because the gap between the two jacket fronts was too large.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you are the one who needs to try to understand.

Anyone viewing the illustrations I uploaded can see that the jackets displayed were designed to be loose in the sense that they were open at the front and not intended to be buttoned up.

Double-breasted jackets necessarily have overlapping jacket fronts.

Standard single breasted jackets are also designed to be buttoned up.

It is quite obvious that those sailor jackets were not intended to be buttoned up, because the gap between the two jacket fronts was too large.

But Lawende wasn’t making that SPECIFIC point. He just said ‘loose fitting.’ That’s all. He didn’t say “a loose fitting jacket that wasn’t designed to be buttoned and that was commonly worn by sailors,” did he?! I’m walking into a brick wall here.

Loose fitting describes the fit of the coat (as opposed to tight-fitting - which also wouldn’t describe a style of coat either) and not the style of coat. You are making an unwarranted assumption.

[rjpalmer]

I would not dream of doing to you, Abby, what Elamarna did to me and replying, Look it up.

The round neck was mentioned by Lawende, as recorded by Swanson.

Swanson:

"fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor..."

Although Swanson throws in a superfluous comma, don't you think he means the reddish handkerchief was tied in a knot around (round) his neck, rather than that the man's neck was round? Isn't everyone's neck round?

By the way--and similarly--I think 'dress' means that man was dressed in a pepper & salt jacket, not that it was a 'dress jacket'--not that anyone suggested this.

I think British people use 'round' for 'around' more often than Yanks and Canadians.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Swanson:

"fair moustache, medium build, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor..."

Although Swanson throws in a superfluous comma, don't you think he means the reddish handkerchief was tied in a knot around (round) his neck, rather than that the man's neck was round? Isn't everyone's neck round?

By the way--and similarly--I think 'dress' means that man was dressed in a pepper & salt jacket, not that it was a 'dress jacket'--not that anyone suggested this.

I think British people use 'round' for 'around' more often than Yanks and Canadians.

You could be right, because if Swanson had been referring to a physical feature, it would have been more natural to mention it after 'medium build'.