Witnesses are no use in JtR case

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

The problem with Irish surnames is when you look at the REAL Irish with its slender and broad vowels and lenition and you get stuff like Cailleach becoming O'Cailleigh or some such thing. It's a twisted mess and I don't study it anymore, but I love the country like me own mither.

Mike

Mike, I referred to you as Wickerman in last post.

"Brón orm".
Phonetic pronunciation in English: brone urum.
The Irish words in quote marks above mean "Sorry!" in English but maybe you already know this.

[The Good Michael]

I would have put 'Ta' in front, but no problems.


Mike

[Wickerman]

Mike, I referred to you as Wickerman in last post.

Hello Siobhan.
So just to clear up any misunderstanding, are you saying you agree with what I last posted, the opinion of Gareth (Sam) 3 years ago?

"Edit: I'll bet their real name was "Kellagher"... variously spelt "Kelleher", "Kellaher", "Killaher" and "Keliher"... and variously pronounced "Kellyher", "Kaylaher", "Kayler" and "Keeler"... and easily confused with (the more familiar?) "Gallagher".
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...&postcount=253

That is to say the family name at 2 Millers Court was very possibly Kellagher (as opposed to Gallagher) and may be the origin of the mispronounced Keyler?

Thankyou, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Jon,

I studied Irish (a thousand years ago) and I don't agree that it would be a simple mistake to make because McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error,

Hi GM.
You lost me, why do you suggest McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error?
What error?
I am not suggesting McCarthy did not know the family's name, we have no comment from McCarthy referring to the Keyler's/Kellegher's.

Abberline sat with Lewis and she apparently mentioned the family name. Abberline, being a Londoner seems to have misheard Lewis's pronunciation due to her possibly strong Irish accent.
The only other occasion where the family name was mentioned was by the Evening News where the reporter is telling us about the Irishman Gallagher (Kellegher?) and his family.

That being said, I would suggest that it does make sense for the Gallagher name to have been sounded out by the ignorant as Gaylor or Kaylor, and Then spelled Keyler.

Ok, thankyou, would this also apply to Kellegher in your view?

There is no easy transition for me from Gal a her, which is already an anglicization to a Kee ler pronunciation. FRom Keeley another Irish name to Keyler, I would buy in a heartbeat.
Mike

The above bit is where you lost me again.

Incidently, what 'did' you mean when you previously asked if I read what I wrote?
There wasn't anything wrong with it that I could see. I was offering a solution not dictating a solution. Something didn't appear to make sense to you?

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

I believe that any police officer of that time,or even the present,if unsure of any words spoken,would ask the person speaking to write the name on paper.

[curious]

I believe that any police officer of that time,or even the present,if unsure of any words spoken,would ask the person speaking to write the name on paper.

or simply say: "Spell that for me, please."

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

I would have put 'Ta' in front, but no problems.


Mike

You mean Tá (Pronounced Taw in English).
No need for the word if all you want to say is one word: Sorry.
Is mise le meas pronounced phonetically in English as Is misha le mass which means "sincerely" in the Irish language - that is for getting your name wrong in previous post.
If you want to test me on my Irish, all future replies to you will be as Gaeilge (in Irish: pronounced phonetically in English as aus Gaylegeh). Try me!!

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

or simply say: "Spell that for me, please."

Most impoverished Irish emigrating from my country in the mid to late 19th century would have been semi-literate at best and completely illiterate more often than not. Spell that for me please is unlikely to have clarified matters for a police officer.
Muddied the waters to even greater confusion more like!

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hello Siobhan.
So just to clear up any misunderstanding, are you saying you agree with what I last posted, the opinion of Gareth (Sam) 3 years ago?


Thankyou, Jon S.

If you read my other posts just recently on this thread, I tried to clarify things about the common mis-pronunciation of Irish Surnames which would - at least in my opinion - have lead to the misspelling and possible change in the eventual way an original Irish Surname would be spelt/ pronounced. If you check on genalogy websites you will find myriad examples of this happening with Irish Surnames. Just one example as a demonstration: O'Riada pronounced phonetically in English as O Reeudda is now pronouced Reid or Reed etc in the Anglicised/ simpler version of the name.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with what was posted 3 years ago.
Suddenly I need to lie down in a darkened room....

[The Good Michael]

You mean Tá (Pronounced Taw in English).
No need for the word if all you want to say is one word: Sorry.
Is mise le meas pronounced phonetically in English as Is misha le mass which means "sincerely" in the Irish language - that is for getting your name wrong in previous post.
If you want to test me on my Irish, all future replies to you will be as Gaeilge (in Irish: pronounced phonetically in English as aus Gaylegeh). Try me!!

Why do you think I would want to test you? I was just explaining how I learned it. We didn't shorten things probably because it was straight from books.
Don't fight with me, Dubliner.

Mike

[Wickerman]

I believe that any police officer of that time,or even the present,if unsure of any words spoken,would ask the person speaking to write the name on paper.

Eliza Gold could only mark an ' X ' as her signature on her pre-inquest statement for the Eddowes inquiry.
I don't know if Sarah Lewis signed her statement, I don't have a copy of the originals. Other examples exist in official paperwork where, for instance, Lawende was recorded by police alternately as Lawrence, Lewin, and Lamende.

We have to make allowances for misspelled, mispronounced & missunderstood vocalized surnames.

Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

Sarah Lewis gave her address as Great Pearl Street, a thoroughfare that lay a few hundred yards to the north of Dorset Street. If, as seems overwhelmingly likely, this was the same Sarah Lewis who resided in Great Pearl Street at the time of the 1881 census, she was of Jewish parentage and East European extraction. Thus her parents were neither Irish, nor named Keyler or Gallagher.

As for the notion that Mrs Kennedy’s narrative should be accorded equal or even greater weighting than that of Sarah Lewis, it should be borne in mind that Sarah awoke on the morning of Friday 9 November to find Miller’s Court in the possession of the police. No-one other than officially sanctioned personnel was allowed to enter or leave the court, a situation that prevailed until Mary Jane’s body was removed and all residents and their guests had been questioned. Since Sarah Lewis was interviewed during this period of sequestration, it can be stated with absolute certainty that she couldn’t have acquired information that was circulating outside the court – from Mrs Kennedy, for example. Given also that Mrs Kennedy was not present whilst police conducted these interviews, Sarah couldn’t have learned details of the Kennedy story from inside the court either. In other words, Sarah was the originator of the narrative that later did the rounds courtesy of Kennedy, and it is thus Sarah’s accounts (police and inquest) that should take precedence over any other version.

But frankly, Casebook has plumbed new depths when such an obvious reality has to be restated.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

We have to make allowances for misspelled, mispronounced & missunderstood vocalized surnames.

Regards, Jon S.

Thanks Jon,
You've said in one sentence what I tried to say in 5 posts!

[harry]

Well thank god my Irish grandfather was named Charlie Ford,and he could write to that effect.But wait a minute,'Charlie'.Can I be sure?

[curious]

Most impoverished Irish emigrating from my country in the mid to late 19th century would have been semi-literate at best and completely illiterate more often than not. Spell that for me please is unlikely to have clarified matters for a police officer.
Muddied the waters to even greater confusion more like!

You're right of course. And names that come from outside an area, spoken in an accent are still difficult to decipher in the 21st century.