Witnesses are no use in JtR case

[Ben]

“Who has the authority to give such an assurance, ..wait, let me guess... “

Yep, you guessed it – the journalists who actually interviewed the women concerned. Shoot the messenger if you like, but the messenger in this case will just shoot you back. It’s your time to waste denying the obvious. I don’t particularly envy your task of attempting to prove the journalist wrong, since their observations just so happen to have tied in precisely with the police decision not include your favourite witness “Mrs. Kennedy” in the inquest proceedings. Bad news for your “well-dressed” silly suspect that you keep trying to shove in everyone’s faces, but very fortunate for the truth.

“Well, we covered this 'way back when', when I also pointed out to you that Mrs Prater has initially said, on the Friday, that she heard nothing in the night.”

She stated this to the press, almost certainly in adherence to a specific police request not to divulge key particulars of her account to the journalists. This does not mean that she gave divergent accounts to the police at all. If you think that it is a matter of public record that Mrs. Prater had parroted Lewis’ account, then you are either delusional, lying or both.

“Fortunately for us, the Evening News ran a story about the Gallaghers”

Oh, the “Gallaghers”.

Look, you really are tragically ill-informed as well as bumptious and ponderous. If you look at the inquest testimony and police records, you will discover that the people who lived at #2 Miller’s Court were the Keylers, according to Sarah Lewis, not the "Gallaghers". You are once again resorting to your favourite, shameful tactic of relying on the 10th November press reports to inform your judgement - a preference unique to you. As far as I’m concerned, the Gallagher family didn’t even exist, at least not in Miller’s Court.

“Vetted were they?, did a good job vetting Caroline Maxwell didn't they?”

Yes, I think they did.

What are you suggesting – that because Maxwell claimed to have seen Kelly later in the morning she did not belong on the inquest? Who raises people who think along these preposterous lines? They were obviously vetted for superficial impressions of credibility, and equally obviously, the ghastly press diarrhoea that you cling to in desperation to support your silly well-dressed, black bag carrying suspect did not pass that vetting process, - Kelly, Paumier and other false leads amongst them.

“Sarah Lewis saw this spooky-looking man with a black bag, so he must exist, yes?”

He wasn’t “spooky-looking”. Lewis found his behaviour “spooky” (which could have been a simply act of attempting to procure a prostitute), most probably in light of the recent ripper murders.

“Abberline himself said Hutchinson accompanied two officers that same night (12th), to look for the man. He also promised to go identify the deceased.”

I think you’re being rather naïve if you think that Hutchinson realistically had a choice in the matter. “Would you accompany us to identify the deceased tomorrow?” “No, can’t be arsed!”. Can’t see that one working out somehow.

“Hutchinson was interviewed by the police and passed their scrutiny, Packer & Violenia were checked out and failed.”

Nonsense. Packer and Violenia were initially accepted, i.e. a few hours after they first made their statements. It was only later that they were discredited, just like Hutchinson. He was discredited, and his statement promptly sank like trace afterwards. This information came from the Commercial Street police station via the Echo, who we know for certain did establish communication with the police. Nothing whatsoever to do with “maybe this” or “maybe that”.

“Just a load of misdirected wind, Ben.”

And your “defense” of Hutchinson is shoddy and embarrassing to behold.

[Wickerman]

Yep, you guessed it – the journalists who actually interviewed the women concerned. Shoot the messenger if you like, but the messenger in this case will just shoot you back.

So you are saying the journalists who interviewed both Lewis & Kennedy have assured their readers that the two witnesses were not the same woman?
Using the Casebook Press Reports, we find..

The first opinions given by Kennedy to reporters were published by at least four evening papers on Saturday 10th; St. James Gazette, Echo, Star, & Evening News.

There is no published opinion prior to the 12th by Lewis with which to make a comparison. All we have from Lewis is a pre-inquest statement to police dated 9 Nov. This statement is then supplemented by Inquest testimony given on the 12th and reported by the daily's – Daily News, Daily Telegraph, Morning Advertiser, The Irish Times, and Echo.

Other papers may have run stories which we have no copies of to judge.

So, getting back to what you claim, that the public have been assured by the journalists who interviewed both women, that these women were quite different.

Wrong on the first count!
The first problem with your argument is that Sarah Lewis did not speak to any journalists.
What we read in the press is what all the reporters heard who were present at the inquest.

In fact, it could be argued that Sarah Lewis only repeated at the inquest what had been published in the papers the previous Saturday under the name Kennedy.
That, in fact Kennedy may have been the original source - not Lewis.

What we may be allowed to accept is that the police were very aware of this/these witness/es, because on the one hand we know Lewis spoke to the police (Abberline?) on the Friday, and according to The Times, 12th Nov.
“..Detective-Inspector Abberline has interviewed a girl named Kennedy,..”

So, both witnesses spoke with the police, both gave the same story about Friday morning, and both gave the same story about Wednesday night.
As they both were visiting the same address at roughly the same time it is quite reasonable to suppose they are one and the same person.
She only gave the name Kennedy to the press, but Lewis to the police.



Now, getting to your second point.
We (you & I) are quite fortunate in that in order to test your assertion we have four newspapers who published the words of both Lewis and Kennedy, so plenty of reporters who are able to assure the general public that these two women were not the same.
Why then is it we find no such assurance?

These papers; Echo, Morning Advertiser, Daily News & Irish Times all reported Lewis's inquest testimony, and each ran stories which resulted from an interview with Kennedy.
Not one of these papers offered any kind of assurance that these witnesses were different people, or the same for that matter. The subject simply does not come up. Therefore, you are also wrong on your second point.

Oh, the “Gallaghers”.

Look, you really are tragically ill-informed as well as bumptious and ponderous. If you look at the inquest testimony and police records, you will discover that the people who lived at #2 Miller’s Court were the Keylers, according to Sarah Lewis, not the "Gallaghers". You are once again resorting to your favourite, shameful tactic of relying on the 10th November press reports to inform your judgement - a preference unique to you. As far as I’m concerned, the Gallagher family didn’t even exist, at least not in Miller’s Court.

I gave your quotation in full because I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding when I explain where you are going wrong.

It always helps when we research a particular subject if we have experience in other fields. I have no expressed experience in linguistics but I have had much exposure to linguistical argument in academic forums. Therefore, I can tell you without the slightest reservation that the name Gallagher is distinctly Irish, and that in the colloquial Irish accent the phonetic rendering of Gallagher comes across as Keyler, the 'gh' being almost silent.

Rather than commit yourself to another erroneous argument I would urge you to seek a more informed opinion from someone with linguistic training.

Keyler, to an English ear, could very probably come from Gallagher, spoken with an Irish accent. It's not like we are comparing a Lieberwitz with a Jones, this Gallagher & Keyler are too close to be dismissed.

What are you suggesting – that because Maxwell claimed to have seen Kelly later in the morning she did not belong on the inquest?

No, I'm saying the police did not 'vet' their witnesses as this sighting would have been verified before hand and judged either relevent or irrelevent, rather than leaving the Coroner confused with no easy resolution.

Signed, the Shoddy Defender.

[Garry Wroe]

It always helps when we research a particular subject if we have experience in other fields. I have no expressed experience in linguistics but I have had much exposure to linguistical argument in academic forums. Therefore, I can tell you without the slightest reservation that the name Gallagher is distinctly Irish, and that in the colloquial Irish accent the phonetic rendering of Gallagher comes across as Keyler, the 'gh' being almost silent.

Yep. And if you play Love Me Do in reverse it predicts the destruction of the Twin Towers.

[The Grave Maurice]

I have no expressed experience in linguistics but I have had much exposure to linguistical argument in academic forums. Therefore, I can tell you without the slightest reservation that the name Gallagher is distinctly Irish, and that in the colloquial Irish accent the phonetic rendering of Gallagher comes across as Keyler, the 'gh' being almost silent.

Rather than commit yourself to another erroneous argument I would urge you to seek a more informed opinion from someone with linguistic training.

Keyler, to an English ear, could very probably come from Gallagher, spoken with an Irish accent. It's not like we are comparing a Lieberwitz with a Jones, this Gallagher & Keyler are too close to be dismissed.

Do you actually read some parts of your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"?

[Wickerman]

Do you actually read some parts of your posts before you hit "Submit Reply"?

What part don't you understand?

[Ben]

“So you are saying the journalists who interviewed both Lewis & Kennedy have assured their readers that the two witnesses were not the same woman?”

No journalist interviewed Lewis, Jon.

...Which speaks immeasurably in Lewis' favour.

This is evident from Lewis’ total non-communication with the press. It means she observed and respected the strict reticence evidently requested of her by the police, and that she did not blab to the press. Unfortunately, it appears she did speak to a few unscrupulous women – Kennedy amongst them – who attempted to pass Lewis’ account off as their own. Fortunately, this was recognised by a Star journalist and, not-so-amazingly, the copycats were discredited in advance of the inquest.

The idea that Lewis was not the original source of Lewis’ account is obvious nonsense. Lewis appeared at the inquest, and the women who blabbed to the press and attempted to plagiarize her account did not – Kennedy amongst them. As for the notion that Lewis only repeated press accounts, this is impossible, and I’d respectfully ask you to at least think about this one for a moment to understand why. Lewis’ egress from Miller’s Court was prevented by the police on the morning of 9th November until she provided her evidence. This was provided that same morning, well in advance of the Kennedy claims.

Lewis came before Kennedy, irrefutably so. Kennedy copied Lewis’ evidence, and the former's claims were accordingly discredited pre-inquest.

We have no idea if Kennedy gave a police report. It was only reported in the press that she did so – it could have been a bogus claim on the part of Kennedy herself. Even if Kennedy did provide a report, it cannot have been accepted, or else she would have been called to the inquest.

“As they both were visiting the same address at roughly the same time it is quite reasonable to suppose they are one and the same person. She only gave the name Kennedy to the press, but Lewis to the police.”

No, it is far more reasonable to accept what the contemporary press stated. Kennedy was not Lewis, but rather someone who had learned of Lewis’ account – first-hand or otherwise – and who then attempted to pass off the account as her own. This was precisely the state of affairs described by a Star journalist on the 10th November, and, for what it may be worth, is the explanation Sugden appears to accept. All this stuff about “Gallagher” sounding a bit like “Keyler only reinforces my observation, and that of the original Star journalist. “Mrs. Kennedy”, that thieving discredited magpie evidently copied Lewis’ account, but “lost” a few details in translation, and what an excellent case in point. Lewis said “Keyler”, Kennedy heard “Gallagher”, and the "Chinese Whisper" was sold to the press.

[Wickerman]

No journalist interviewed Lewis, Jon.

Oh I know that!.. but you obviously did not last night when you responded with...

Yep, you guessed it – the journalists who actually interviewed the women concerned.

That was YOU who said that was it not?, I mean we were not imagining this.

Unfortunately, it appears she did speak to a few unscrupulous women – Kennedy amongst them – who attempted to pass Lewis’ account off as their own.

Nothing to be gained by anyone hypothetically copying Lewis's account, the only "repeating" that was commented on was the cry of "Oh, murder", and the time it was heard, nothing more.
And we have your Star reporter to thank for this specific point, no mention of Wednesday night stalkers, or Friday morning walkers...., just the cry and the time it was heard.

Fortunately, this was recognised by a Star journalist and, not-so-amazingly, the copycats were discredited in advance of the inquest.

Oh I'm sure the police thanked your buddy for all his help. Good thinking by Abberline?, to enlist the assistance of the Star in unravelling these confusing details.

The idea that Lewis was not the original source of Lewis’ account is obvious nonsense.

Not an idea, as I said, "In fact, it could be argued that Sarah Lewis...", which it "could", because the evidence both for and against this possibility is entirely ambiguous, however, when they are seen as the same woman the point is mute.

As for the notion that Lewis only repeated press accounts, this is impossible, and I’d respectfully ask you to at least think about this one for a moment to understand why. Lewis’ egress from Miller’s Court was prevented by the police on the morning of 9th November until she provided her evidence. This was provided that same morning, well in advance of the Kennedy claims.

None of your subsequent points have any bearing on the issue if Lewis & Kennedy were the same woman.

[Heinrich]

....
...I can tell you without the slightest reservation that the name Gallagher is distinctly Irish, and that in the colloquial Irish accent the phonetic rendering of Gallagher comes across as Keyler, the 'gh' being almost silent.
... Keyler, to an English ear, could very probably come from Gallagher, spoken with an Irish accent.

Gallagher is indeed an Irish name, Wickerman, specifically from County Donegal. The effect of the h is to render the g silent so that the name is pronounced by the Irish as Gallaher. There is no way this would ever sound like Keyler, I'm afraid, when spoken in a Irish accent. The English, on the other hand, have a habit of disregarding the h aspiration in such Irish names, thereby, in the case of Gallagher, pronouncing it as Gallager or, again, in the case of Callaghan as Callagan.

[Wickerman]

Gallagher is indeed an Irish name, Wickerman, specifically from County Donegal. The effect of the h is to render the g silent so that the name is pronounced by the Irish as Gallaher. There is no way this would ever sound like Keyler, I'm afraid, when spoken in a Irish accent. The English, on the other hand, have a habit of disregarding the h aspiration in such Irish names, thereby, in the case of Gallagher, pronouncing it as Gallager or, again, in the case of Callaghan as Callagan.

I am quite prepared for opinions to contest my suggestion, but I might assume you are not speaking from the perspective of a 19th century Cockney who no doubt was the one recording the name in question.

Remember how Barnett's reference to recognising Kelly.." and I identify it by the ear and eyes,", who would argue that the word "ear" should not have been "hair"?

On a similar vein anyone today might not think "Cartin" could be confused for McCarthy, but it apparently was
"...alley known as Cartin's court in Dorset street."

Then similarly, but equally not the same we have "Carter" for "McCarthy".
"There are about eight houses in the court. The houses are chiefly tenanted by the poorer class of Irish people. The landlord of Carter's-court keeps a chandler's shop in Dorset-street."

This case has several instances of mispronounced and misspelled names, you should at least acknowledge that. In which case a Londoner hearing Gallagher rendered as Kellegher, or Keyleher, and writing Keyler is not beyonds the bounds of reason. However, rather than insist it was, I did suggest anyone contesting the idea should consult someone with linguistic training.
My exposure to phonetic discussions is more limited to Semitic languages, Ugaritic texts, Canaanite, and of course Biblical Hebrew, but more informed with Egyptian hieroglyphic.

Incidently, thankyou for the reference to Donegal. My wife was from County Claire and my father from County Cavan.

How a Londoner would render a foreign name when given in a foreign accent is entirely open to question. What has been argued here is that Gallagher did not even exist, and predictably, completely without foundation. But of course we are familiar with this strained and dubious methodology, what contradicts the "speculation" is immediately dismissed.
And there are apparently no limits to this modern deception.

Regards, Jon S.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

By “women concerned” I was obviously referring to the women who attempted to parrot off Lewis’ account as their own, of which there were apparently half a dozen. We don’t know who all of them were, but we can safely say that Mrs. Kennedy was one of them. I’m quite aware that Lewis never spoke to the press, which counts immeasurably in her favour as an honest witness.

“Nothing to be gained by anyone hypothetically copying Lewis's account”

This wasn’t the impression formed by the journalists who actually interviewed the women concerned:

“The desire to be interesting has had its effect on the people who live in the Dorset-street-court and lodging-houses, and for whoever cares to listen there are a hundred highly circumstantial stories, which, when carefully sifted, prove to be totally devoid of truth."

From 10th November 1888.

We have no record of any women repeating the “Oh murder” detail in isolation from any other aspect of Lewis' story, so it can’t have been this detail ONLY that was repeated. Evidently therefore, Kennedy copied the full account of Lewis; an observation Philip Sugden would agree with:

“By the time the Star’s man got the scene of the crime her story had gone round and “half a dozen women were retailing it as their own experience”, a circumstance which may explain why Sarah’s story is sometimes credited, aberrant forms, to a Mrs. Kennedy in the press”

[Ben]

As Heinrich has pointed out, Gallagher does not sound like “Keyler”, no matter how much you stretch it. One could conceivably be converted into the other through Chinese-whispering and second or third-hand hearsay, but not as a result of a direct mishearing of what the other person said. It doesn’t matter if you’re pronouncing Gallagher in Irish or English – the result doesn’t sound anything like Keyler. Ga-llager/Ga – llaher versus Kee-ler. It doesn’t work at all. It certainly doesn’t compare to the other examples of mishearing you’ve referred to. “Ear” sounds very much a cockney “‘air”, while Carter and McCarthy share the emphasized “car” syllable.

“In which case a Londoner hearing Gallagher rendered as Kellegher, or Keyleher, and writing Keyler is not beyonds the bounds of reason.”

I’m afraid I think it is, and in any case, it would have been Abberline who took Lewis’ statement, and he was not a "Londoner" any more than Sarah Lewis was Irish. If Lewis heard Gallagher, she would said Gallagher, not Keyler.

Regards,
Ben

[Wickerman]

We had a similar debate back in 2008, I forgot that Sam saw the same comparison, on reflection I think Sam got it right when he corrected himself...

"Edit: I'll bet their real name was "Kellagher"... variously spelt "Kelleher", "Kellaher", "Killaher" and "Keliher"... and variously pronounced "Kellyher", "Kaylaher", "Kayler" and "Keeler"... and easily confused with (the more familiar?) "Gallagher".

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=49685&postcount=253

A more satisfactory result.

[The Good Michael]

Jon,

I studied Irish (a thousand years ago) and I don't agree that it would be a simple mistake to make because McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error, That being said, I would suggest that it does make sense for the Gallagher name to have been sounded out by the ignorant as Gaylor or Kaylor, and Then spelled Keyler. There is no easy transition for me from Gal a her, which is already an anglicization to a Kee ler pronunciation. FRom Keeley another Irish name to Keyler, I would buy in a heartbeat.

Mike

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Jon,

I studied Irish (a thousand years ago) and I don't agree that it would be a simple mistake to make because McCarthy wouldn't have made such an error, That being said, I would suggest that it does make sense for the Gallagher name to have been sounded out by the ignorant as Gaylor or Kaylor, and Then spelled Keyler. There is no easy transition for me from Gal a her, which is already an anglicization to a Kee ler pronunciation. FRom Keeley another Irish name to Keyler, I would buy in a heartbeat.

Mike

Hi folks,
There are 32 counties in Ireland and each one has a different accent when speaking English. The strongest accents are from Kerry, Cork and Limerick (towards the South) and also in any of the Northern counties. I went out with a guy from Mayo (west of Ireland) when I was a youngster and we had to have a go-between-cum translator (from Mayo English into Dublin English) on each of our dates because I didn't have a clue what he was saying when I was on my own with him. In other words, his accent was so strong, I couldn't get a handle on it! County Dublin - only a few hundred miles from Mayo - has the least strong accent in all of Ireland as we are so close to mainland Britain.
To further ram home my point!...Many Irish soccer players play in mainland Britain's Premiership League these days and on Saturday nights when I watch the television highlights, I hear British sports' commentators mispronouce the Surnames of all the Irish players they mention. On the one hand it's funny to hear but on the other, it's a bit annoying that they cannot even get the pronunciation of simple Irish Surnames correct. If this type of mispronunciation is true today, then it was true in 1888.
Sorry Wickerman, I can absolutely buy into the idea that the name was mispronounced after its first translation into "London" English. Also, I can speak adequately in the Irish language but don't see how it's relevant here.

[The Good Michael]

The problem with Irish surnames is when you look at the REAL Irish with its slender and broad vowels and lenition and you get stuff like Cailleach becoming O'Cailleigh or some such thing. It's a twisted mess and I don't study it anymore, but I love the country like me own mither.

Mike