Louis Diemschutz

[Robert]

Debs, the Black Fast (sounds like a horror film) :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-lipski.html

[Chris George]

Thanks for that Chris,
Regarding the day of atonement incident you reffered to in your interesting article, and in your post here, is this an incident that occured in September of 1888?
Thanks
Debs

Yes two pieces from The Star, Friday, 14 September:

Freethinking Jews and the Black Fast.

The Workers' Friend, the Hebrew Socialist paper, of this week, announces that as a protest against the Jewish religion and the Day of Atonement, the Jewish Socialists and Freethinkers have organised a banquet for tomorrow, which will take place at the International Working Men's Club, 40, Berner-street, Commercial-road. Speeches will be delivered in various languages. The announcement has caused much excitement amongst the orthodox Jews, and it is rumored that a disturbance may take place at the banquet. If so, the members of the International Working Men's Club state that they are prepared, and the aid of the police will not be called in to assist in quelling it. This banquet is unprecedented in Jewish history. . .

THE DAY OF ATONEMENT. . . .

To-night is the beginning of the Jewish Day of Atonement. From sunset to-night till sunset to-morrow night - with a margin on either side to ensure absolute and exact compliance with the letter of the law - the overwhelming mass of the children of Israel on the face of the globe will abstain from taking food or drink of any description or in the smallest quantity. Orthodox or unorthodox, rich or poor, unenlightened Rabbinist or modernised Rationalist, the very Gallios of everyday life, all alike wherever men, women, and children of the Jewish race are found - the Siberian exile, the Australian settler, the African miner, the English gentleman - will be "afflicting" their "souls" within the next 24 hours, and will be repeating the time-honored formulæ of prayer, praise, and confession in the time-honored tongue. . . .

[Natalie Severn]

Debs, the Black Fast (sounds like a horror film) :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-lipski.html

Now Robert,
you are non too keen on people [ mistakingly] calling you" homophobic" so no need to demonise Louis Diemschutz any further

[perrymason]

".... If so, the members of the International Working Men's Club state that they are prepared, and the aid of the police will not be called in to assist in quelling it."

Hi Chris,

Maybe its just me, but I find the above snippet from your post very revealing. This was a location where they intended to fight their own battles, something which should of course become immediately a police matter in civilized society. Thats tribe talk, and tough talk. And these men were called anarchists by at least one police source I recall.

Their shock and blood "squeamishness" at seeing Liz does not ring true to me, considering their ages for one.

We all imagined a few young lads mixed in with some grey beards, but Kozebrodksi for one was only 17.

Best regards Chris....long time no see.

[Tom_Wescott]

We all imagined a few young lads mixed in with some grey beards, but Kozebrodksi for one was only 17.

Regarding the 'core' group of members, the oldest one (in 1888) that I was able to find was Philip Krantz, at the ripe old age of 29. This was like the Animal House of the LVP.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Tom said.."........Regarding the 'core' group of members, the oldest one (in 1888) that I was able to find was Philip Krantz, at the ripe old age of 29. This was like the Animal House of the LVP."

Tom,

You did me a great service pointing out the ages to me before, it really does allow you to see them for what they were.

And your analogy of Animal House is appropriate...a bunch of young guys causing a ruckus occasionally...and the Police, like the Dean in Animal House, probably would have loved to shut the club down.

Would believing one of their members killed a woman on their property do that....likely..for a while anyway..but as we know, Liz was "another" woman that had been killed by our phantom friend.....I think very fortunately for the International Working Mens Club.

Cheers Tom.

[Rapunzel676]

For what it's worth (which probably isn't much, since most of your minds are already made up), my Slavic husband thinks the name is best transliterated as Diamsh*tz, and that it sounds more Russian than German. Of course, there were quite a few Poles and Russian Jews living in Prussia and its territories until Bismarck kicked them out, so I think it's safe to say there were probably some Russo-Prussians, Russo-Poles (is that a word?), Russo-Prussian-Poles running around, as well as Jews of any or all of the above persuasions. It reminds me a bit of the Alsace-Lorraine situation. Are they French? Are they German? Are they Franco-German?

My head is starting to hurt. I think I will go back to bed now.

[Sam Flynn]

For what it's worth (which probably isn't much, since most of your minds are already made up), my Slavic husband thinks the name is best transliterated as Diamsh*tz, and that it sounds more Russian than German.

Certainly the ДЫМШИЦ's or "Dims[c]hitz's" I found at Yad Vashem were predominantly from Russia or Belarus (see p. 2 of this thread for a screenshot).

[Chris Scott]

One snippet I hadn't seen before was the forename of Diemschutz's wife. It appears that she was named Sarah. The cutting below is from the Lloyds Weekly of 4 April 1889 and concerns the action against Constable Frost for assault on Diemschutz.
Chris

[Jon Guy]

Hey Chris

Do you think Frost was the german speaking Froest, who translated the enquiries into "Mary" the Bremen hairdresser ?

[Chris Scott]

Hi Jon
Frost was the constable summonsed for Assault. The start of the accounts is below:

[nicole]

Hi all,

By m_w_r

I'm struck by Diemschutz and Kozebrodski's youth - 27 and 19 respectively, as given in the Times report of the assault hearing. Perhaps I ought to do more, closer, reading, but the image I had of the IWMC being frequented mainly by old men

My thoughs exactly. I had always pictured Diemschutz to be older (late 40s -late 50s or thereabouts). I certainly never imagined that he was 26 at the time of Liz Strides murder.

Nicole

[Tom_Wescott]

Of the core members, the oldest one I'm aware of was 29 in 1888. And these were the 'old men' of the club.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

I had always pictured Diemschutz to be older (late 40s -late 50s or thereabouts).

Nah, Nicole - he and most of his clubmates would have been young political activists, seeking to put the world to rights. (Or "lefts", as the case may be )

[The Good Michael]

Gareth,

Though this isn't the thread for it, and leads me to soon start another, the youthfulness of the club members leads me to wonder at how large the membership might have been. I believe the club could hold 200 people or so. I don't remember where I read that, however. Yet, the membership limit, much like health club memberships, could presuppose that many members, because of work and/or travel requirements, would be absent at any given time, and so the membership allotment might have been 3 or 4 times as great. I make the assumption that women weren't included in recruitment numbers. What I'm getting to is that, perhaps the long reach of the club made many young Jewish men at least occasional members. Of course I'm leading toward the disgruntled Jew component of which some certainly wouldn't have been playing with a full deck, or by listening to radical speeches and engaging in hypothetical leftist conversations would have lost a few cards from their decks. Sorry for the long sentences. Must be the German in me or the detestation of choppy, ESL sentences Just to bring it back on track, maybe all the Jewish figures that we encounter in the Ripper saga where occasional members of the club and all knew of each other at the least, including Diemschutz (yeah! I brought it back).

Anyhoo, I think I need to start a thread about this.

Cheers,

Mike