Louis Diemschutz

[perrymason]

Just to address your post to me Nats...

I do know you've studied the socio-economics of the period, and we both know I haven't,...and therefore you are far more likely to have been right in your interpretations...

I just feel in many ways the plight of the people there at that time was double sided....they had external and internal issues,... and that club did reportedly have post meeting gatherings often that fit the profile of an early Union type assembly...with all the criminal types that go with it. It was also called an anarchists club by a police source during the Ripper series.

There are always 2 sides at least......and that Sunday event likely had evil men on both sides.

Cheers Nats.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Mike.I have looked into it its true and certainly there were some very difficult characters in amongst the anarchists.But the anarchists of 1888 were not the seriously hell bent Molotov cocktail throwers of the 1910 type .William Morris,who is now highly honoured by the British Establishment in the Victoria and Albert Museum,was one of these "anarchists" and spent many of his Saturday nights at the Berner Street Club giving talks on these matters.
So too do the "Match Girls" the young women strikers of the 1888 Bryant and May struggle, have an honoured place ,both in the British Women"s Movement as well as the British Trade Union movement and the Labour movement in general, for their successful strike to obtain humane working conditions.
Yes there were some hot heads and one or two crack pots in amongst the anarchists of 1888 but most appear to have been young idealists who liked singing dancing having a good time on a Saturday night ..........and were genuinely fond of William Morris !
Natalie

[drstrange169]

Hello All,

A couple of relevant snippets, for what they are worth.

1. Mr D called himself Diemschitz in an article he wrote 1889.

2. There were anarchists of the Molotov cocktail throwing kind at the club. They called themselves the Knights of Liberty group and they believed that political change could only come through violent action.
The club was divided between KoL's and the more peaceful socialist style anarchists. In 1888 the socialists held sway but within a few years they lost control of the club to the radicals.

Thanks for your time.

[Dan Norder]

Yes, but apparently Diemschitz was not allowed to have known how to spell his own name until Sam weighed in a hundred years later to approve of it first. And now that Sam did finally approve -- after insisting for a year or more that it had to be something else -- it wasn't that Diemschitz really ever knew his own name, it could only have been a "lucky guess".

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, but apparently Diemschitz was not allowed to have known how to spell his own name

How he might have chosen to render his name was up for grabs, Dan - Cyrillic, Hebraic and English ortho*****ies are hardly interchangeable.

Besides, up until now I thought we were only aware of some newspaper articles and the flyer/poster, neither of which presumably were written in Diemschutz's own hand. This is the first time I've heard of the 1889 article, too - which is useful info, except inasmuch as it probably didn't carry his John Hancock either.

And now that Sam did finally approve -- after insisting for a year or more that it had to be something else

No - I've changed my view after finding those Diemschitz/Dymschitz/Dim$hitz variants (take your pick) over on Yad Vashem, and realising that we seem to be dealing with a predominantly Russian (rather than German) name. Only then did I find sufficient grounds to revise my opinion.

PS: I was not alone in my original stance. Why not crow over some other corpses? My bones are almost picked clean which, considering what a fat sod I am, is saying something.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

Why don't you volunteer to fall on your sword right now. Apparently that is the only way that Dan is going to let this go.

God fordbid that somebody made a mistake.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam, Why don't you volunteer to fall on your sword right now.

Good idea, CD. I'm just about to chop some meat and veggies for a lamb jalfrezi, so it'll have to be a kitchen knife rather than a sword - but at least I'll be doing two jobs in one. Three, actually! I'll also be inventing the world's first "Hara Curry"... shame I won't be around to enjoy it.

[Natalie Severn]

Hello All,

A couple of relevant snippets, for what they are worth.

1. Mr D called himself Diemschitz in an article he wrote 1889.

2. There were anarchists of the Molotov cocktail throwing kind at the club. They called themselves the Knights of Liberty group and they believed that political change could only come through violent action.
The club was divided between KoL's and the more peaceful socialist style anarchists. In 1888 the socialists held sway but within a few years they lost control of the club to the radicals.

Thanks for your time.

fair do"s mate!

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Irrespective of how Louis Diemsh*tz spelled his name, I found this report from The Times of March 19th 1889 interesting, in which he is described as an "unlicensed hawker".

I hadn't known that.

Regards,

Simon

[Dan Norder]

Mistakes are fine... but if, even after having proof that you made a mistake you still insist that the people who are proven right didn't know what they were talking about, then that's a new mistake, and one that's worse than the first one. People can and will make mistakes, but it's how they handle it when it's pointed out that matters, and Sam's response is that nobody else is allowed to be right even when he proves them right because he didn't get to say it first. The other couple of people who were also mistaken on this topic aren't aggressively still arguing that their mistakes are more intelligent than arguments that turned out right.

And, honestly, claiming that Diemschitz didn't know how to spell his own name and someone a century later is in a better position to do so is probably the most colossally stupid thing ever argued on these boards (yes, beyond anything Karen Trenouth said during her stint here). As long as that's still being suggested as a reasonable argument I will make fun of it. And, if c.d has a problem with it, that's fine. He can even whine about it each and every time as well if he feels the need.

[c.d.]

Mistakes are fine... but if, even after having proof that you made a mistake you still insist that the people who are proven right didn't know what they were talking about, then that's a new mistake, and one that's worse than the first one. People can and will make mistakes, but it's how they handle it when it's pointed out that matters, and Sam's response is that nobody else is allowed to be right even when he proves them right because he didn't get to say it first. The other couple of people who were also mistaken on this topic aren't aggressively still arguing that their mistakes are more intelligent than arguments that turned out right.

And, honestly, claiming that Diemschitz didn't know how to spell his own name and someone a century later is in a better position to do so is probably the most colossally stupid thing ever argued on these boards (yes, beyond anything Karen Trenouth said during her stint here). As long as that's still being suggested as a reasonable argument I will make fun of it. And, if c.d has a problem with it, that's fine. He can even whine about it each and every time as well if he feels the need.

Well Dan you are always touting the fact that you were a psychology major in college. Perhaps you could give us a brief dissertation as to what it means when someone feels the need to build themselves up by tearing others down.

Virtually all of your posts are like that and I just got sick and tired of it. If you consider that "whining" so be it.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam's response is that nobody else is allowed to be right even when he proves them right because he didn't get to say it first.

No - that's your interpretation.

Sam's real response is that there is now more evidence available (to all) on which to make a judgment. Furthermore, that judgment may now be more fairly made as the evidence now amounts to more than the attempted spelling of a foreign name in an English newspaper. It amounts to more than the printing of that name by a single flyer/poster, printed in English characters, by a publisher more accustomed to printing Yiddish journals in Hebraic script.

And, honestly, claiming that Diemschitz didn't know how to spell his own name

Would that be Diemschitz, Dymschitz, Dienschutz, Dinschitz, Dim$hitz... or what? With or without umlauts? In Hebrew or Russian script? Hmmm?

probably the most colossally stupid thing ever argued on these boards yes, beyond anything Karen Trenouth said during her stint here

Get real!

[Ally]

So Sam was wrong. And he said he was wrong. But he didn't say he was wrong right. He said he was wrong wrong and now we need 4 pages to discuss whether it is more wrong to be right for the wrong reasons all along or whether it is more wrong to have been wrong for the right reasons.

God I LOVE the message boards.

[tji]

Hi all

Wow, No pressure on making a mistake on this thread huh

All I can say is 120 years after the fact, in this day and age people cannot spell my surname correctly, so I don't think there should be this much emphasis on a name spelt correctly or not, should there?

tj

[Chris George]

Here is a report from JtR Scotland Yard Investigates by Stewart Evans and Donald Rumbelow.It can be found under notes on The London Terror page 290.

".....many marches and demonstrations started from the[Berner Street] club.Interestingly,in March 1889 when Monro was commissioner,there was a fight outside the club involving between 200 and 300 people,one of whom was Diemschutz,who had found Stride"s body.According to one report ,the police forced their way into the club,"broke windows,tore down pictures and posters and fell with their fists and their batons upon a few of the comrades who happened to be there" Diemshutz"s wife was thrown down "and kicked ,others they beat until the blood streamed,three were dragged to the station, again beaten and THEN CHARGED WITH ASSAULTING THE POLICE[!!!] The houses were searched twice and a loft door broken open."

I believe this is the incident which the reports refer to and are talking about.
Natalie

This disturbance was I believe related to the brawls between radical anarchist and socialist Jews and orthodox Jews at the time of the Day of Atonement, the most sacred day of the Jewish calendar, in March 1889, as I reported in my article in the March issue of Ripperologist on "Synagogues of the East End and the Era of Jack the Ripper."

Similar riots tied to the day had occurred in 1888. As I wrote,

"The socialists purposely met on Jewish religious holidays and held marches targeting synagogues. They thus planned disruptions on the Day of Atonement, the most important religious date in the Jewish calendar, in March 1888. Ed Glinert has written about their agitators’ activities during the sacred day:

"'At the time of the Jack the Ripper murders while the Jewish community prayed. . . apostate anarchist Jews at the Berner Street International Working Men’s Club held a banquet as their personal snub to the day of fasting. In their speeches the anarchists explained that the miseries and degradation of the people should not be blamed on divine power but on capitalism. . . . They anticipated trouble from orthodox Jews, and were not disappointed. Religious zealots who had gathered outside the building began to smash the club’s windows. When three of the audience went outside to intervene more trouble flared, and a melee of around a hundred Jews fought until dispersed by the police.'"

An article here on Casebook "Sabbath Addresses to Jewish Working Men and Women. 'Socialist Synagogue Parade.'" The Jewish Chronicle, 22 March 1889 describes the activities of the club and the disturbances around the Great Synagogue in Aldgate and in Berner Street.

Chris