P.C Smith and William West

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Even if Liz had no intention of selling herself when her killer encountered her, he would not have been far wrong if he took her to be a prostitute and, fully expecting her to accompany him somewhere quieter than this confounded club with its comings and goings, took great offence when she was having none of it.

That's a good theory as to why he could've killed her, and explanation as to there being no mutilations.

[Canucco dei Mergi]

Guys, Diemschitz did not see the body as he drove his cart in. It wasn´t until his horse shied that he made out a dark shape on the ground

That he did not see it, we know it.
But that this was due to it being pitch dark in the alley or because he had his poney before him, this we can not know.

The perspective of Goldstein and Diemshitz were different.

We are not able nowadays to determine if Goldstein could/did see something when he passed (stop looking up ?) along.

Certainly not from the Diemshitz experience.

[caz]

Hi All,

Perry has made me think about this sixpence Liz was paid for cleaning. If she didn't need it for alcohol, either because she wasn't in the mood to get drunk, or had enough male attention to be treated if the various witnesses did see her in male company (how's that for clinging for dear life to the topic? ), has anyone got any idea what became of it? Did she spend some on her last meal? Did she treat herself to the piece of velvet for future sailor-pulling power, and maybe the cachous for her more immediate needs?

Crucially, did she have any money left for her bed when she was killed? If not, how was she planning to get it? If so, did her killer take it?

Even if Liz had no intention of selling herself when her killer encountered her, he would not have been far wrong if he took her to be a prostitute and, fully expecting her to accompany him somewhere quieter than this confounded club with its comings and goings, took great offence when she was having none of it. "What? I'm not good enough for you, you tuppenny-hapenny, Jew-loving whore? I'll show you what's good for you - my knife across your bloomin' throat, that's what!"

The lack of any mutilations just might be a show of contempt: only women willing to go with him need apply for the full works.

Have a great weekend all.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Cold Water

-Why didnt Liz pay for her bed before leaving? She had the money from cleaning that day.
-Why would she say she did not know when she might return, after she had already given some velvet to a lodger to hold for her, which would lead one to surmise she had plans at least for that night. Did she mean she might not return to sleep there again, or just that night?
-Why is she wearing an ankle length skirt and a flower on her breast to solicit.....and why would cashous be something she would use when dealing with street people that smell horrible likely.
-Why didnt Police use Schwartz's statement at the Inquest?
-Why do Eagle, Diemshutz and Kozebrodski run out yelling "another" woman has been murdered?
-Why is Liz Stride, if a Ripper victim, unmutilated post mortem?
-Is there anything with respect to the known evidence regarding her murder that precludes someone else with a knife killing her, other than Jack?

Hi Perry,

You still at it?

I’ll have a bash at these but I sincerely doubt you really want any of the simple or logical answers. You have had them all in the past from various sources and still you repeat the same old questions, as if no sense can ever be made of this crime until people start giving you the responses that match your own thinking on it. Why not just answer them all yourself in a single post, in the way you would like them answered, and have done with it?

-She was spending and earning and spending her doss money, much like Polly? Easy come easy go?
-See above - she was out on the pull like Polly, and not about to spend her doss money on an early night back at her doss house?
-She’d left her leather mini-skirt at the dry-cleaners? Got treated to the flower by one source of doss money and the cachous by another? Or used cachous to stop her gagging when dealing with a particularly whiffy source of doss money?
-Schwartz did not witness the murder and could not confirm that the man he saw was even involved, or had not pushed off 15 minutes earlier?
-Because despite the latest trend of arguing for lady killers round every Whitechapel street corner, outdoor knife murders committed on women were still extremely uncommon up until 1888 and therefore the murders of Martha, Polly and Annie would have been very much on everyone’s minds as they learned about the bloody corpse in their own yard? Why on earth would anyone not refer to her as “another” murdered woman, unless they had been living in a cave since April?
-Because the ripper was more concerned with his immediate security on those watchful streets than with saving face and street cred for the army of detectives looking for him a century too late?
-No, but what on earth prevents Jack from cutting this unfortunate and running on to the next?

Why is this more likely to be yet another of the very rare unsolved outdoor knife murders of women in the area that can’t so easily be attributed to Jack, than just the one occasion at the height of his active period when things didn’t go all his way? How many times can we reasonably expect this type of killer to strike in such busy locations without screwing up and failing to get a woman exactly where he wants her and for as long as it takes to have a right old go at her before anyone arrives on the scene with a bucket of cold water?

Love,

Caz, with her own bucket of cold water
X

[Fisherman]

Guys, Diemschitz did not see the body as he drove his cart in. It wasn´t until his horse shied that he made out a dark shape on the ground, but he had no idea what it was, and therefore prodded it with his whip.
At that time, he was inbetween the two walls turning the small passage into a stygian dark, and so his eyes were growing gradually accustomed to the conditions.
Goldstein was passing outside the club, and thus he was surrounded by considerably more light, and he would therefore have stood much less of a chance to see the body. Since the body was lying tucked up against the wall he first passed, the right hand gate-post would also have obscured the body from his wiew to some extent, and he would actually have had to look over his own right shoulder and slightly backwards to get a wiew over the place she lay.
I say he never saw her.

The best,
Fisherman

Hello all,

I looked through the posts but didnt see anyone raise the point that Liz was known to work for Jewish Families on holidays and the like. She may even have helped serve dinner somewhere before arriving on scene....she is dressed rather nicely, and ankle length is not the length of skirt they flipped onto their back, with backside to client.

Cheers.

[Chris]

"Canucco"

What I don't understand - and I hoped I'd made it clear enough in my previous post - is why you seem to think it would have been acceptable for Schwartz's wife to work on the Sabbath, but not for Schwartz to do so.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

You're one up on me.

Rest easy.

I will never argue "the bigot's encyclopaedia" with you.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

You're obviously not Jewish.

No, I'm not Jewish, but I know the fourth commandment doesn't include the words "men only"!

[Canucco dei Mergi]

Only that you seem to think it inconceivable that Schwartz would have lifted a finger on the Sabbath, but apparently have no problem with the idea of his wife lugging around furniture.

Doesn't matter what I think.
Indeed I do not think anything here. Tradition is what it is no matter what one thinks about it.
No work on Shabbat - you don't write you don't even alight fire - you don't even hint at it. Schwarz had to go. Not even the fact that he comes back well after the ending of the Shabbat (sunset) is coincidental. The wife had no choice herself, everything is dictated by the interpretations of the 'righteous ones'. No discussion possible.
Why should I found it 'inconceivable' ?
Not the case believe me.
Must go now. Was a pleasure.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

You're obviously not Jewish.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

I see you have a little problem here in catching the point but I don't see at what level exactly.

Only that you seem to think it inconceivable that Schwartz would have lifted a finger on the Sabbath, but apparently have no problem with the idea of his wife lugging around furniture.

[Canucco dei Mergi]

Your utterances are a bit delphic. Perhaps you mean Schwartz hired some Gentiles to do the work?

Maybe there were Gentiles asked for help or maybe not, who knows.

It could be a possibility and you can bet that if they had heavy wooden furniture Schwarz's wife could not have had the strength to do it by herself.

But it doesn't matter.
Schwarz spoke about his wife and don't count on orthodox jews to break tradition even by an inch.

I see you have a little problem here in catching the point but I don't see at what level exactly.

[Chris]

Your utterances are a bit delphic. Perhaps you mean Schwartz hired some Gentiles to do the work? The newspaper comment doesn't read like that to me, but who knows?

By "dangerous" I just meant that there can be a danger of jumping to a false conclusion.

[Canucco dei Mergi]

But it can be dangerous to say "It would have been like it is now" when speaking of the late Victorian period.

Dangerous ?

You mean for my personal integrity ?