P.C Smith and William West

[Jon Guy]

Hello

PC Smith 452H walked down Berner Street at about 12.35 am and saw a man talking to a woman, whom he later identified as Liz Stride. Aside from the description of the man he also stated :

"I noticed he had a newspaper parcel in his hand. It was about 18 inches in length and 6 or 8 inches in width".

Now , it was Tom Wescott`s smart observation that the this parcel could well of been literature of some kind, the kind produced in the printing shop at the rear of the club at no. 40 Berner St.

William West, the overseer of the printing shop would state at the inquest that he :

" left the club at about 12.30am. Before leaving the club he had occasion to go to the printing office to put some literature there, he went into the yard by the passage door. thence to the printing office."

Was the man talking to Stride,William West ?

West then contradicts himself in his statement at the inquest :

" he remained in the club until the discovery of the deceased"

yet, he left with his brother, and Louis Stansley shortly after 12.30 ?

[Cap'n Jack]

'Now , it was Tom Wescott`s smart observation that the this parcel could well of been literature of some kind, the kind produced in the printing shop at the rear of the club at no. 40 Berner St.'

That's 'smart'?
That a newspaper parcel could have been literature?
I remember a protracted battle I had with Tom last year where I maintained that this 'newspaper parcel' was nothing more than the normal newspaper parcel that fruit sellers used to wrap their wares, in this case it was sour black grapes of wrath.
Where Tom has fallen down in this regard is that he should be claiming that the newspaper in Stride's bonnet was the 'Arbeiter Front'.
Tom wants the involvement of the IWEC in Stride's murder badly.
I don't think that is 'smart'.

[Jon Guy]

I don't think that is 'smart'.

It is slightly more smarter than an 18 by 6 inch parcel to wrap fruit in.

[Cap'n Jack]

The 'Arbeiter Front' doesn't fold kindly. It resists efforts to conform it to any standard. It is after all quite rebellious. And bigger than it seems.

[Jon Guy]

I remember a protracted battle I had with Tom last year where I maintained that this 'newspaper parcel' was nothing more than the normal newspaper parcel that fruit sellers used to wrap their wares, in this case it was sour black grapes of wrath.

Did anyone raise the following point during this protracted battle, AP, that at the time of Smiths sighting of a man carrying a newspaper parcel, William West was moving between the club by the side door and the printers office with some literature in his hands ?

[Cap'n Jack]

Yes, I think Tom did, in that as he was carrying this volume he tripped over a foot scraper, propelled said volume at Dimshitz' pony, which balked, throwing Dimshutz into West, who just happened to be holding a fearsome twelve inch press cutter in his other hand, which as he fell sliced neatly through Stride's throat, then West picked himself up, retrieved his volume, said 'guten abend' to Demitasse and went to his shed to print out 'Der Arsebiter Frint'.
Meanwhile an hour later someone killed Elizabeth Stride.

[Cap'n Jack]

And did anyone raise the point, Jon, that Wess never left the grounds of the IWEC and was at all times at least 18 feet away from the gates to the club?

[Jon Guy]

And did anyone raise the point, Jon, that Wess never left the grounds of the IWEC and was at all times at least 18 feet away from the gates to the club?

Indeed,AP, it was Tom who pointed this out to me , but I persist with my suspicions of West. If no-one saw him, he was not going to admit speaking to Stride, especially with the public feeling at this time. Too many contradictions. I am not saying he was Strides killer, but there is the possibilty he spoke to Stride.It seems to me that Stride may have crossed the road away from the club as PC Smith passed, as she could have been charged with soliciting if she stood outside the club door.

Below are some of his dubious observations :

Not exactly much noise; but I could hear the singing when I was in the yard.
[Coroner] Did you look towards the yard gates? - Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.
[Coroner] Can you say that there was no object on the ground? - I could not say that.
[Coroner] Do you think it possible that anything can have been there without your observing it? - It was dark, and I am a little shortsighted, so that it is possible. The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.
[Coroner] What made you look towards the gates at all? - Simply because they were open. I went into the club, and called my brother, and we left together by the front door.
[Coroner] On leaving did you see anybody as you passed the yard? - No.
[Coroner] Or did you meet any one in the street? - Not that I recollect. I generally go home between twelve and one o'clock.

[Tom_Wescott]

Where Tom has fallen down in this regard is that he should be claiming that the newspaper in Stride's bonnet was the 'Arbeiter Front'.

This is precisely what Tom DID suggest. The man Smith saw was a young man carrying a 'newspaper parcel' that so happens to fit the dimensions of the Arbeter Fraint precisely (I have copies). I considered long ago that it might have been William Wess, only because he said he left the club with some papers (something he'd HAVE to admit to if he was witnessed) and went to the printing office. However, I don't recall Philip Krantz (who was in the printing office all night) corroborating Wess' arrival. Personally, I think it more likely that the man Smith saw talking to Stride was merely a clubman out handing out their paper, which was circulated for free.

Tom wants the involvement of the IWEC in Stride's murder badly.

I don't have to work too hard on that since her body was found in their yard. If you mean I'm desperate to blame them for her killing, I most certainly am not.

I don't think that is 'smart'.

Then I must surely be on the right track!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Jon,

I should tell you that I early on looked at Wess (not West) with suspicion, but my research into him (I have stuff from his personal archives - pretty cool) doesn't show a single iota of reason to suspect he might have been a murderer. It's an entirely different story for some other members of the club and their associates, though. Anarchist circles were jam-packed with nutjobs.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

There is obviously much that lies upon Club members shoulders that night, a body found in a yard that is known to have "low-men" and women gathered after an anarchist club's meetings...gee, just like that very night. But on that night, even though the rain had stopped and only around 24 or thirty men can be accounted for inside singing, not one of the almost 75 others that attended were hanging out in Dutfields Yard, and having a smoke or a chat. And in a "deserted" yard, shouldn't Eagle and Lave have been able to see each other, as they stated they were there at the same time, 12:40? If there were others milling about, I could understand.

Throat cut between 12:46 and 12:56...but Diemshutz arrives at 1...hmm...

Witness is going to see if his wife moved that day for him, so he goes to the old address at 12:45 at night when its likely she completed moving some clothes and a few sticks.. if any... of furniture maybe 12 hours before. And there he is...A Jewish Man standing outside a Jewish Mens Club after a meeting why Jews should be Socialists. By co-incidence, of course.

Funny that with not one person in the yard, that Liz and Pipeman were hanging out near the gates. And where was Broadshouldered Man headed...into the yard?

The whole thing smells.

And Wess speaks first at the inquest....why? Why not Kelly? Why not PC Smith? Why not Diemshutz if he finds her? Why not Schwartz?

My best regards all.

[perrymason]

Heres one to consider,

We know that there was a Jewish Witness that at some point refuses to give witness against a fellow Jew, and we think its Lawende or maybe Schwartz.

If Goldstein, when he passes the gates of a club he is a member of, looks in only to witness the death of Liz Stride by a fellow members hand, wouldnt he have a really good look..and reasons not to identify a fellow club member suspect?

Best regards.

[Tom_Wescott]

Goldstein was witnessed by Fanny Mortimer walking at a hurried pace and only glancing towards the club. Anyone standing in the passage, even at it's edge, would be invisible to him. Good thought there, Michael, but I think we can rule out ol' Leon as our Jewish police witness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Goldstein was witnessed by Fanny Mortimer walking at a hurried pace and only glancing towards the club. Anyone standing in the passage, even at it's edge, would be invisible to him. Good thought there, Michael, but I think we can rule out ol' Leon as our Jewish police witness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

If anyone should know that not all ideas offered are winners Tom, its me.

Just a passing idea, I kind of thought that passing the gates would be the only way to see the area shadowed by the open gate door, closest to the wall. And Fanny saw him at around the time the "latest" throat cut was, indicated by Blackwell.

Nice to see you, best regards.

[Wickerman]

Hi Trevor.
Perhaps you can explain something about police beats. PC Smith on the Berner st. beat provides us with a list of streets he patrolled.
"it went from the corner of Jowers (Gowers) walk, Commercial-rd, as far as Christian-st, down Christian-st and Fairclough-st as far as Grove-st, then back along Fairclough-st as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as Commercial-rd, taking in all the interior streets, including Berner-st and Battey-st."

When we outline this route on a map we can see the streets given are the perimeter he is to walk. What interests me is where he says, "taking in all the interior streets".
I assume he is admitting these interior streets are his responsibility, but, that they are not on his beat, his beat goes around them.
My question then is this, does PC Smith only patrol those interior streets at his discression?