Schwartz and Brown

[Ben]

Hi Fish,

I'm not suggesting that the cachous were used as a weapon. I suggest that she may have retrieved them when she saw a potential customer approach from the North, thought better of the idea when she registered his intoxicated condition and aggressive behaviour, and that they remained in her fist during the ensuing scrap, not because they made a good weapon, but because she considered them valuable. If they were ensconced in a fist, I don't know how reasonable or unreasonable it would be to surmise that none were dropped outside the gates. If we knew more about the dimensions of the cachous packet or those of the individual sweets, we'd be better equipped to make such a determination.

Best regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello CD. I recall from the coroner's inquests that there were 2 telltale signs of strangulation. 1. clenching the fist, 2. a protruding/lacerated tongue.

Now Liz was not strangled to death, so one would not expect a protruding tongue. But if she were taken down from behind by the scarf around the neck and felt the incipient choke, would not her fist--of particular interest, the left with the cachous--clench? It's merely a reflex action.

The best.
LC

[Ben]

If you don't know the answer, Ben, it's okay to say so.

Oh, I don't know the answer, CD, but I'm confident that an explation such as the one I outline above could well account for presence of the cachous. All I would observe is that their presnece in Stride's hand would seem, to be, to be far more compatible with preparedness for attack on Stride's part than a silent, sudden onslaught.

Best regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

sen sen

Hello Ben. When I was a small chap, cachous were available commercially under the trade name, Sen Sen. They were, in both dimensions and appearance, similar to the burned tip of a match. The taste? Altogether disgusting.

But the funny thing is, they did take away bad breath (not to mention any desire for another).

The best
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. I recall from the coroner's inquests that there were 2 telltale signs of strangulation. 1. clenching the fist, 2. a protruding/lacerated tongue.

Now Liz was not strangled to death, so one would not expect a protruding tongue. But if she were taken down from behind by the scarf around the neck and felt the incipient choke, would not her fist--of particular interest, the left with the cachous--clench? It's merely a reflex action.

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Well first the question of why the cachous survived her being thrown to the ground has to be answered. I think the answer is simple - she didn't have them in her hand then. Then the question becomes when did she take out the cachous? Now if they indicate that she was at ease and not fearful of her life (which I think is the case) why would she do so in the presence of an angry BS man.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Oh, I don't know the answer, CD, but I'm confident that an explation such as the one I outline above could well account for presence of the cachous. All I would observe is that their presnece in Stride's hand would seem, to be, to be far more compatible with preparedness for attack on Stride's part than a silent, sudden onslaught.

Best regards,
Ben

Just having a bit of sport with you, Ben. While we usually disagree, I am generally impressed by your arguments and your writing style. That particular answer didn't seem to live up to your usual standards.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"I'm confident that an explation such as the one I outline above could well account for presence of the cachous. All I would observe is that their presnece in Stride's hand would seem, to be, to be far more compatible with preparedness for attack on Stride's part than a silent, sudden onslaught."

It is a question of credibility, Ben. And the credibility that she would hold on to the cachous drops with each fall to the ground on her behalf, simple as that.
And - just like you said - the compression of the artery (and the cut - my remark) could well account for her clenching her hand. Outside the gates, this was not about, dramatically decreasing the chances of her having held on to the cachous during a fall.

Holding on to the cachous during one fall after having been choked is the better bid than doing so through a sequence of two falls and some subsequent (and dead silent?) sort of fight for her life. This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that she must have known her assailant - it is by far more credible that she brought the cachous out inside the yard.

The rest of the incident seemingly strengthens the hypothesis -if Broadshoulders was someone unknown to her, why do you think he tried to drag her out into the street first? I have a very good and plausible explanation to that if we work from the suggestion of an aquaintance. What is your suggestion? Can you find a motive for an unknown assailant to do this? Can you account for why she cried out three times - in a lowered voice?

The Stride case is in fact a very rewarding case to study, since the bits and pieces - few as they are - all lend themselves to a fully covering solution with the aquaintance scenario. It is like finishing a jigsaw puzzle. The pieces will only fit together with the correct solution - and that solution involves Stride being killed by a man she knew well.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

"How do we know that cachous don't apply in paid-for sex? Given a choice, I think a client would prefer good breath to bad. They also may have been used to give oral sex a little something extra."

We don´t KNOW it as such, c.d - but as I have pointed out before, if they were a tool of the trade, it is strange that they were not reported to be about in any other prostitutes belongings at that approximate time.
Another point that has to be made is that the cachous did not necessarily improve the breath at all - they were described as sweetmeats, and on earlier threads posters aquainted with cachous from their upbringing have told us that they were very mild and flower-scented.
The famous french, very strong cachous, known from famous posters and such, were not introduced on the market until the early 1890:s.

So no, there seems to be little reason to regard Strides tablets as related to sex.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello CD.

"Well first the question of why the cachous survived her being thrown to the ground has to be answered."

You mean outside the gates? I don't think they were out. Inside the gates? She was gently laid down (or so it looked).

"Now if they indicate that she was at ease and not fearful of her life (which I think is the case) why would she do so in the presence of an angry BS man[?]"

Ex hypothesi, he had calmed down a bit. (Unless I missed the hypothesis.)

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Liz Stride was almost certainly choked with her scarf...while the knife was being used. It was twisted and tightly knotted and nicked while in that twisted state.

Since the only reasonable way that happens without a huge struggle or a cry out is an attack that she did not anticipate from behind her where she could not see the impending danger coming, the cashous only help illustrate that fact.

She was almost certainly unaware she was in imminent danger.

If alone with a stranger in that yard, just after an altercation outside the gates... well, that would be hard to buy into.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"Liz Stride was almost certainly choked with her scarf...while the knife was being used. It was twisted and tightly knotted and nicked while in that twisted state.
Since the only reasonable way that happens without a huge struggle or a cry out is an attack that she did not anticipate from behind her where she could not see the impending danger coming, the cashous only help illustrate that fact.
She was almost certainly unaware she was in imminent danger.
If alone with a stranger in that yard, just after an altercation outside the gates... well, that would be hard to buy into."

Was that you writing, Michael? Or was it me? Not that it matters - we would both have a pretty good case whoever it was!

The best,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Michael writes:

"Liz Stride was almost certainly choked with her scarf...while the knife was being used. It was twisted and tightly knotted and nicked while in that twisted state.
Since the only reasonable way that happens without a huge struggle or a cry out is an attack that she did not anticipate from behind her where she could not see the impending danger coming, the cashous only help illustrate that fact.
She was almost certainly unaware she was in imminent danger.
If alone with a stranger in that yard, just after an altercation outside the gates... well, that would be hard to buy into."

Was that you writing, Michael? Or was it me? Not that it matters - we would both have a pretty good case whoever it was!

The best,
Fisherman

Ahh... greed!

All the best amigo

[c.d.]

I am at a complete loss here. The BS man is so angry that he kills Liz. His anger is demonstrated by throwing Liz to the ground and by threatening Schwartz. Yet Liz doesn't seem to feel that she is in any danger? WTF???

And Michael, please...it is cachous not cashous.

c.d.

[perrymason]

I am at a complete loss here. The BS man is so angry that he kills Liz. His anger is demonstrated by throwing Liz to the ground and by threatening Schwartz. Yet Liz doesn't seem to feel that she is in any danger? WTF???

And Michael, please...it is cachous not cashous.

c.d.

Please excuse the wandering "c".

Youve hit upon the problem cd....it doesnt work if she is in a situation that involves her feeling threatened.

Which the BSM incident might do....if he was a stranger....and if he stayed in her company.

The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple.

Best regards

[c.d.]

The cachous are not likely in the hand of someone who felt imminent danger cd. Its that simple.

I couldn't agree more.

c.d.