Schwartz and Brown

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

It has more to do with how Liz got from the street to the yard. Assuming for the sake of argument that it was the BS man that killed her, I think that he would have had to have dragged her. That seems the most likely scenario to me in which case unless Liz was a complete fool she would have to assume she was in danger.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free".

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

"If the BS man was angry enough to throw her to the ground and issue a threat to Schwartz, how could Liz not be aware that this was a dangerous situation for her?"

In fact, c.d, you cannot assess the level of danger involved - unless you KNOW the man! If he is unknown to you, most anything could happen, and inflicted violence would reasonably point to more of the same coming up.
But if you KNOW the man you are dealing with, you may - for example - also be aware that he would probably grow very regretful after doing such a thing as throwing you to the ground.
Mechanisms like these are very often involved in domestic violence - the woman involved often knows exactly what will follow her moves, and she can inflict mental damage as retaliation, something she would not dare to do if she could not foresee the consequences.

"The fact that no argument was heard and the cachous tell me that she was completely at ease with her killer."

E-X-A-C-T-L-Y, c.d! And with what kind of people are we completely at ease during such a thing as the Ripper scare? Those we know or those we do not know?

The very best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free"."

A good suggestion - until we need to know why she brought her cachous out in such a situation.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi CD,

I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free".

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

How do we know that the BS man was in possession of a knife? When did Liz take out the cachous?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Ben writes:

"I don't think he was forced to drag Stride to get her into the yard. He was in possession of a knife, and he could easily have used some "persuasion" with that. "Get in that yard, or else. I'm not going to kill, you, I'm just going to rob you and/or have sex with you for free"."

A good suggestion - until we need to know why she brought her cachous out in such a situation.

The best,
Fisherman

It makes me nervous when we are in agreement, Fisherman.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

How do we know that the BS man was in possession of a knife?

We don't, not for certain, but I was working on the basis on your "Assuming for the sake of argument that it was the BS man that killed her" suggestion. In the above outlined scenario, the cachous would probably have been in her hands before BS accosted her.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

But that brings up the question of why the cachous didn't break when she was thrown to the ground.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Sudden compression of the carotid artery could well account for their presence in her hand, as would a last struggle with her assailant, during which she attempted to fend off her attacker with clenched fists (with cachous enclosed therein).

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"It makes me nervous when we are in agreement, Fisherman"

Uncanny, c.d, absolutely uncanny. We are going to have to do something about it.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Maybe so, Ben, but that doesn't answer the question of how the cachous survived her being thrown to the ground.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"Sudden compression of the carotid artery could well account for their presence in her hand, as would a last struggle with her assailant, during which she attempted to fend off her attacker with clenched fists (with cachous enclosed therein)."

There was no compression of the artery outsíde the gates. That means that she would have held on to the cachous when being thrown to the ground, when getting up on her feet, when being shoved/threatened into the yard and when being brought to ground inside the yard.
Apart from this, we can see that as she hit the ground inside the yard, some cachous were scattered about. But nobody reports on any cachous being about outside the yard. Reasonably, she would have spilled some of them there too, when going down.

Taken together, this all very clearly suggests that the cachous were not in her hand until inside the yard. And that in itself suggests a state of mind on her behalf where she felt at ease and safe. As I have said before, the cachous do not apply in paid-for sex, and they make a poor weapon in fights with violent men, so poor in fact that most women would not opt for trying them in such a scenario in the first place!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

I can see them surviving a fall to the ground in her hands if she anticipated an attack, CD. If someone pushed me over when I had a £20 note in my fist, I wouldn't relinquish it. If I was tripped up from behind with a surprise attack, things would be different.

[c.d.]

I can see them surviving a fall to the ground in her hands if she anticipated an attack, CD. If someone pushed me over when I had a £20 note in my fist, I wouldn't relinquish it. If I was tripped up from behind with a surprise attack, things would be different.

If you don't know the answer, Ben, it's okay to say so. I think you're stretching it a bit there my friend.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

How do we know that cachous don't apply in paid-for sex? Given a choice, I think a client would prefer good breath to bad. They also may have been used to give oral sex a little something extra.

c.d.