Schwartz and Brown

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I'll address some of your questions. When I stated that no one heard an argument, I meant that no one heard an argument coming from the yard. Now it is possible that the singing drowned it out but it Mrs. Diemschutz and Morris Eagle were both very adamant that they believed they would have heard any loud sounds coming from the yard and they did not. Could it have been an argument in low tones as Fisherman has argued? It's possible but I see it as much more probable that if that argument ended in Liz's death that voices would have been raised.

You mentioned that in Victorian times women slapped gentlemen. If that was the rule how do you account for battered women like Liz and the treatment she received at the hands of Kidney?

c.d.

[jason_c]

Hi Lynn,

I don't understand why you have trouble with the idea of Liz soliciting that night. Could you elaborate?

Here's something that occurred to me and for what it is worth -- Liz was allegedly seen in the company of men earlier in the evening. It seems a bit strange therefore that no alcohol was found in her body. I can't remember but she was a drinker was she not? Could she have had an upset stomach and therefore didn't want to make it worse by consuming alcohol? Dutfield's Yard had a privy. Do the math.

c.d.

A bunch of cachous have turned her meeting into a hot date.

[lynn cates]

points to be made

Hello CD. In order.

"I don't understand why you have trouble with the idea of Liz soliciting that night. Could you elaborate?"

1. She seems to have been with one man for over an hour and socializing with him. For the serious prostitute, time is money.

2. She seemed to expect something like a big date. Notice her arrangements. A. Not paying for her bed. B. Dressing up. C.Trying to procure a lint brush. D. A flower, etc. Surely supererogatory for a prostitute.

3. It looks like she may be turning down a client. "Not tonight . . ."

4. Location, location, location. Next the club on meeting night is not a good place to be. "But wait, Lynn, couldn't she get customers there? Isn't this like working a convention?" Possibly. And she MIGHT even take them to the dark 18' between the kitchen door and gates. And I might think this IF ONLY LIz were killed going INTO the yard. She wasn't.

Next.

"Here's something that occurred to me and for what it is worth -- Liz was allegedly seen in the company of men earlier in the evening. It seems a bit strange therefore that no alcohol was found in her body. I can't remember but she was a drinker was she not? Could she have had an upset stomach and therefore didn't want to make it worse by consuming alcohol? Dutfield's Yard had a privy. Do the math."

Would a lady with gastric distress spend a lot of time kissing and otherwise hanging all over her potential customers? But I waive that.

Right. So she has the spat with BS man. He leaves. Now she goes to the privy. Finishes. Comes out and then Jack attacks from behind. Where was he waiting? Now this would work fine IF he were a club member waiting at the door for a passing victim. Also, club member Jack would need, not only a lucky encounter with a female, but a moment when no other club member is around.

Likely?

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

moreover

Hello CD. Your dictum:

"You mentioned that in Victorian times women slapped gentlemen. If that was the rule how do you account for battered women like Liz and the treatment she received at the hands of Kidney?"

1. I don't think Kidney (or LVP men in general) slapped. Yet they did batter. They used more violent techniques than slapping.

2. Kidney was no gentleman.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I agree that Liz's behavior tends to indicate that she was on a date but that is only earlier in the evening. Dates can go bad. What if her date thought he was going to get a freebie and Liz starts talking money? End of date.

Victorian gentlemen aside, and be it slaps, puches etc., I would expect that there would have been a natural progression -- loud argument, blows to the face (that would have left a mark), more argument, and then the rhroat cut. Now it is certainly possible that her killer (if it were a domestic) went right for her throat but I find that idea less probable than a progressive escalation in anger.

I am not quite sure how we know whether Liz was going into or coming out of the yard. Wouldn't the direction she was facing be a function of how she was laid down?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello CD. Great questions all.

"I agree that Liz's behavior tends to indicate that she was on a date but that is only earlier in the evening. Dates can go bad."

Are you suggesting that Liz got a bit soured and thought, "Well now, if that's how 'tis, I may as well turn a trick!"?

"Victorian gentlemen aside, and be it slaps, pu[n]ches etc., I would expect that there would have been a natural progression -- loud argument, blows to the face (that would have left a mark), more argument, and then the [t]hroat cut. Now it is certainly possible that her killer (if it were a domestic) went right for her throat but I find that idea less probable than a progressive escalation in anger."

Now this is CRUCIAL. I have agitated ze little grey cells without mercy. (Oops, that's Poirot. Sorry.) Why a sudden calm AND THEN the knife? I can only speculate from a real life instance. I know of a case (family related) where a lady decided to have sex with a rather rough date. (He actually carried a knife.) As soon as he undressed, she mocked his, umm, well, you get the idea. Then she commenced to laugh. He stabbed her (not fatally--she recovered). My point is this. Liz may have told her ex-lover (?) to bugger off and then made an insulting reference. (Perhaps a comparison to her new boyfriend.) I put it to you that something like that could have sent him over the edge.

"I am not quite sure how we know whether Liz was going into or coming out of the yard. Wouldn't the direction she was facing be a function of how she was laid down?'

It would indeed. But there can be no spinning movement ante mortem lest the cachous spill. If not for those, anything would have been possible and Jack, likely, would take the credit for this kill.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Liz was a prostitute, that we know. So yes, I am suggesting that she resorted to prostitution later that evening. I don't really consider that a big leap of faith. Women like Liz had to be practical to survive.

Your story was quite interesting to say the least. It is certainly possible that Liz's killer (if it was a domestic) made up his mind beforehand to cut her throat. Like so many other things associated with this murder, I am forced to go with what I think is more probable.

I am still not clear as to your point with regards to whether Liz was entering or exiting the yard. Do we have conclusive proof one way or another?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

es geht immer weider

Hello CD. Thanks. Further:

"Liz was a prostitute, that we know. So yes, I am suggesting that she resorted to prostitution later that evening. I don't really consider that a big leap of faith. Women like Liz had to be practical to survive."

In fact, if only one of the C5 were a prostitute, it was Liz. She was registered (if I recall) as one in Sweden. And I daresay she turned many a trick near Whitechapel. But I am suggesting that she closed up shop for the evening. We all need time away from work.

"Your story was quite interesting to say the least. It is certainly possible that Liz's killer (if it was a domestic) made up his mind beforehand to cut her throat. Like so many other things associated with this murder, I am forced to go with what I think is more probable."

But my point was, that if she hurled an insult at his, well, you know, then he could have fallen into a fit of passion (not THAT kind, I mean rage) and cut almost impulsively.

"I am still not clear as to your point with regards to whether Liz was entering or exiting the yard. Do we have conclusive proof one way or another?"

Proof concerns deduction. Evidence concerns induction. So of course, we have no proof (and that would be so even if it were caught on tape).

Here's a fun (well, maybe) thing to do. If you are married or have a lady friend, try reenacting the Dutfield business. I have twice or thrice. It is a REAL eye opener! Don't forget the cachous and hence no scuffle or spinning.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Liz might have closed up shop for the evening as you say and was not actively soliciting. But what if she were appoached by a customer? Was her financial situation such that she could pass up an opportunity? Maybe.

I understood your story and the immediate effects of anger. But let's not forget that we have no evidence that Liz had a lover at the time. Even if she left Kidney for someone else we don't know the status of the relationship at this point. We are also assuming that jealousy was a motive and that this jealousy just happened to have boiled over on the same night that Jack was out doing his thing.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"Liz might have closed up shop for the evening as you say and was not actively soliciting. But what if she were appoached by a customer? Was her financial situation such that she could pass up an opportunity?"

I´m with you on this one, c.d - for as you know, I am of the meaning that her aquaintance actually belived that she WAS selling herself outside the yard. And I think that she was unprepared to see him again at that time and stage. Just like you say, we may be dealing with a scenario where she set out for a date, but opted for business somewhere along the line. If this was due to the date going wrong or if it was a success and she simply decided to try and raise some money afterwards, we cannot tell. But you may well be spot on here!

On the notion that Liz was leaving the yard when she was attacked and cut:

The reasonable assumption is that her killer grabbed her by the scarf from behind. You do not trow people of balance and bring them down by pushing them forwards in such a situation - you pull them backwards. If Liz was facing the entrance to the yard as this happened, she would fall into the yard, meaning that her head would end up in the direction of the kitchen door and her feet would face the gates. This is exactly what happened.

She did not go down straight on her back - her clothes tell us as much. If she had, then she would have fallen into her assailants chest. Instead she fell backwards and sideways, spinning to her left in the air by appearances. Therefore, she ended up on her left side. This is consistent with Blackwells assertion that the scarf had peen pulled hard to the left. Such a manouver ensured that she would not fall on the man that had grabbed her scarf, she would instead pass him on his left side. If this is what happened, she would arguably end up in the type of position we know she was found in.

In this scenario, she does not see what was coming. She could be completely unaware of the danger, since she was headed for the gate, having turned her back on BS man. Thus no crying out, thus she could well have felt cachous-comfortable, thus the frayed scarf, thus the complete and utter surprise. Once again, it all adds up.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

new thread?

Hello CD. Well, let's see.

"Liz might have closed up shop for the evening as you say and was not actively soliciting. But what if she were app[r]oached by a customer? Was her financial situation such that she could pass up an opportunity? Maybe."

I like your maybe. It's quite possible that's what she did with her, "Not tonight. Maybe some other night."

"I understood your story and the immediate effects of anger. But let's not forget that we have no evidence that Liz had a lover at the time. Even if she left Kidney for someone else we don't know the status of the relationship at this point. We are also assuming that jealousy was a motive and that this jealousy just happened to have boiled over on the same night that Jack was out doing his thing."

Indeed. We have very little evidence of Liz's personal life at all. I am satisfied that Kidney was not involved in any of it. (Of course, if I were SY, I'd interrogate him first.)

Both the domestic scenario and the Jack scenario have catches. But I find the ripper one all but untenable.

But one can still make a dubious case for Jack. Say, why not a new thread, "Saving Liz" or something of that sort? We might find a way to get something to fit.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

I'm glad that things all add up for you. Again, be careful of straining that rotator cuff. But I see a giant red flag. Liz being unaware of the danger being the giant stumbling block for me. In the two most common non-Jack scenarios we have the BS man or Kidney/unknown lover as her killer. But in both those instances we have anger/jealousy as a supposed motive. If the BS man was angry enough to throw her to the ground and issue a threat to Schwartz, how could Liz not be aware that this was a dangerous situation for her? The same applies to Kidney, a heavy drinker with a history of abusing her. The same goes for some imagined lover. If he is jealous and angry, I would assume that there would be a reason for it. Does he not say a word to Liz and hide his emotions? Yet, you have a street veteran like Liz completely unaware that she was in immediate danger. That seems extremely unlikely to me. The fact that no argument was heard and the cachous tell me that she was completely at ease with her killer. And while it doesn't necessarily follow that it was Jack it sure doesn't add up that it was the BS man or Kidney/lover.

c.d.

Hi Lynn,

My typing and proofreading skills seem to be taking a day off.

[Tom_Wescott]

"I agree that Liz's behavior tends to indicate that she was on a date

What precisely is this behavior? A known prostitute going to a bar early in the day, then hitting the bar circuit that evening, during which she's seen with different men. That's hooking, not dating. I've often seen her using a lint brush on her dress as a sign she was going on a date. That's ridiculous. Liz was used to somewhat better life than Chapman and Nichols, et al. She'd had a home for years with Kidney, who made decent money. Polly Nichols had just acquired a new dress and 'jolly bonnet', yet she was not out on a date the night she died. There seems to be a trend of romantacizing Liz lately. It's fun to speculate, but let's not forget that Liz was out meeting strange men the night she died.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Tom,

Well it is a moot point since we don't know how she ended the evening tricking or not tricking as the case may be. I tried to make that clear in my previous posts.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Yet, you have a street veteran like Liz completely unaware that she was in immediate danger.

I'm not sure how you've deduced from Schwartz's account that Stride did not consider herself in immediate danger after being accosted by BS man. I hope it's not the assumption that screaming "not loudly" = not particularly scared. Because that still doesn't necessarily follow.

Ben