Schwartz and Brown

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:

"All I state is what is known about witnesses.They can and do be led by suggestion.They can misinterpret in difficlt conditions,and after lenghty spells.They can lie even."

Correct, Harry. But keeping that in mind, the wise thing to do is always to go by what the witnesses say. The moment we stray from the original testimony is the moment where we add speculation.

"Schwartz is not a good witness."

He may have been an exemplary witness, for all we know. Let´s not state things like this with no substantiation. It has never been proven that he got a single thing wrong, just as it has never been proven that he got it all right.

"I would suggest that it is posters with a seemingly fixation that Schwartz testimony should be accepted without question,who are in error."

Then how about my suggestion, Harry: up til the moment we find a good reason to propose that Schwartz was NOT right, we must rely on his testimony and try and reconciliate it with the events that went down and the evidence that is at our hands. How´s that?

"There is no more evidence that BS threw her to the ground than she fell of her own actions."

Blatantly wrong, I´m afraid. The ONLY evidence we have is Schwartz´testimony, and it is quite clear on this point. He never suggested anything else but BS man throwing her to the ground. That is not to say that a scenario with her falling is not a credible one (my own hunch is that this may well have happened) - but the main line here MUST BE that she WAS thrown to the ground.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Hello CD.

"The knife business (if I recall correctly) only appeared in the newspaper account and not in the official police report. Some think it simply an embellishment by an over eager reporter."

I think so myself.

Do you think that, without the Schwartz story, the Stride case looks more like Jack's work than with?

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"The knife business (if I recall correctly) only appeared in the newspaper account and not in the official police report. Some think it simply an embellishment by an over eager reporter"

And some - like me - recognize it as an attempt on Schwartz´ behalf to polish a bit on the police report story, where he awarded himself the role of the coward. He may have decided to retrospectively provide himself a better reason for having run off instead of helping a woman who subsequently got killed.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d again:

"How do we know that the man seen with Liz was a lover and not a client?"

We do not, c.d. We, however, take a look at things and realize that it seems that she spent up to two hours of her presumably valuable time (if she was hooking, that is) hugging and kissing him, and doing smalltalk.
Of course, if he paid her a handsome sum per minute for doing so, the equivalent, as it were, of what she could earn hooking, she would probably much rather kiss, hug and smalltalk than pull her skirt up in a back alley.

After having sorted these things out, we ask ourselves: What is it that punters want? How willing are they to wait two hours, smalltalking and cuddling, to get there? How many professional ladies are willing to idly chat the evening away with talkative men, if they have set out to do as much money as possible?

And when we have digested it all, we end up with a nagging suspicion that she may not have been on the sport that night, since she sure did not act the way women on the sport normally do.

That´s not - as I initially stated - to say that we can possibly KNOW that he was a lover and not a client. It´s just to realize that things point that way.

"With regard to "Lizzie" - Schwartz was intimidated enough by the BS man so much so that he ran off. It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?"

The bids vary a lot when it comes to whom the cry was directed to. Schwartz and Pipeman have both been suggested to be on the receiving end. And since Liz looked distinctly goj, and also because Lipski in the original shape was a male, one can easily understand that Schwartz would not opt for Stride being the target. He was also probably pretty well aware that he had a jewish appearance himself, and so he would probably add two and two and come up with a decision to run for it.

Nothing strange about that.

But the rest of us can, in retrospective, see the sense in BS man shouting "Lizzie" at Stride, as a reprimand for her not complying to being dragged away with him - IF he knew her. And you know by now, c.d, that I think there are a good deal of things pointing to such a thing!

Gosh, I must have explained this a hundred times by now. You would not be pulling my leg here, would you?

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Fish,

As for the spinning her round, you will be aware that it could be that she broke loose by spinning away from him - and subsequently fell.

That's exactly my point. You're trying to make sense of Schwartz's observations as outlined in Swanson's report, and since taking her into the streets and then suddenly "turning her around" and throwing her in the opposite direction doesn't seem very plausible, it becomes reasonable to interpret the evidence in order to make sense of it, which is why I suggest that BS always intended to pull her in the direction of the yard.

NO it is not. Not at all, actually. Then he would have used the extremely strange sentence: "She cried out for all she was worth, but she could only cry out at a low voice".

The point is that he didn't know if she could only cry out in a low voice, just as he didn't know (and couldn't possibly know) that Stride was deliberately lowering her screams in order that they corresponded precisely to the perceived gravity of the situation. The concept of appropriate screaming volume is one I can't get my head around. Sorry.

I welcome any alternative scenario, in order to have my own ditto thoroughly tested.

Don't instruct people not to challenge it then.

We have argued over this before, and I remain at my stance that the PC´s man does not tally as well as the other do.

And I remain at my stance that Smith and Marshall's man are probably the same, but BS was somebody different. But yes, we've argued this before, and I don't relish the prospect of being bogged down in cutaways again.

"But since we know that he was 5 ft 5 and sturdy and clad in dark clothes and a peaked cap, we know that he tallies well with Marshalls man and Best and Gardners ditto, and since they said the very word "respectable"

I think you'll find that stoutish, shortish, dark clothes and peaked cap is a pretty generic description, especially near the docks. I may have been out of the Stride loop for a while, but I don't recall Best or Gardner referring either to the "sturdiness" of the man or a peaked cap. Can you direct me?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
I would be be grateful if you could enlighten me on the woman being carried up Brady street to the london Hospital in the early hours of the 31st August.
I have never come across this in any shape or form.
I have heard of three seperate incidents .
A sound of a woman screaming in Brady street, and sounds of running, [ which could be what you are refering to].
And two incidents in Bucks Row.
One of frantic knocking on a door, heard by a young girl who awoke her mother, and was described as a breathless woman , possibly being attacked whilst running.
And another report of the same type of incident , but sound of a passing train cancelled out any futher sounds.
Are these all your incident?
Regards Richard.

[harry]

Fisherman,
All I state is what is known about witnesses.They can and do be led by suggestion.They can misinterpret in difficlt conditions,and after lenghty spells.They can lie even.Schwartz is not a good witness.When he says right or left,up or down,backwards or forwards or any other specific reference you like to volunteer,it should never be taken that it must be factual,to the extent that he could not be wrong.People might say ,but it is the only evidence we have.So what,that in itself does not make it incontestable.It was interpreted evidence,another factor that should be taken into consideration.I would suggest that it is posters with a seemingly fixation that Schwartz testimony should be accepted without question,who are in error.
Stride was a person who could be expected to proposition a prospective(to her)customer.
Such persons are known,on occasions,to persist if such customers appear uncooperative,even to the extent of clutching at them.
Some Objecters to the attentions of these women do react in an aggressive manner
There is no more evidence that BS threw her to the ground than she fell of her own actions.
There is no clear evidence of who accosted who in the first instance.
I could go on,and I am not lead by the fact of whether I want it to be a ripper killing or not.My objection to accepting the evidence of Schwartz in total and without reservation, is in the quality of the witness himself,the conditions existing at the time and place,the class of person the victim was,and the lack of medical evidence to show that an assault had taken place prior to her killing.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

You didn't tell me what time it is over there. Isn't it like the middle of the night?

The knife business (if I recall correctly) only appeared in the newspaper account and not in the official police report. Some think it simply an embellishment by an over eager reporter.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

fracas

Hello CD.

"simply seeing two men together would not be enough to make him run off, would it?"

Possibly. Possibly not. But there seemed to be a fracas (Liz and BSM) and Schwartz claimed later that pipe man had a knife.

He was prudent. (I would likely have been terrified.)

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

the question

Hello CD.

"But how does Liz end up by herself on the street so late at night?"

Now there's a question to be asked! And why at Berner street? Had the date begun? Had it ended? Was he a well to do Jewish lad (she had been working among the Jews) who had popped round to the club? Was she waiting on a date at the kitchen door? Was his name Kosminski? Kaminski? I'm baffled.

But you have my word, solve this mystery and I'll buy any book you care to write!

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Did he not feel threatened by pipe man thinking he was with BS man?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Glad to see you here. Isn't it quite late where you are? 10:35 P.M. here.

I believe that he did say that but simply seeing two men together would not be enough to make him run off, would it?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

You seem to believe that Liz was not soliciting that night. I just don't think there is enough evidence either way to form a solid conclusion. Tom Wescott could be right in saying that perhaps Liz was on a "working date" like Martha Tabram and Pearly Poll. Meaning that she spent non-sexual time with the client with the understanding that at some point they were going to do the deed.

But how does Liz end up by herself on the street so late at night? Wouldn't her date have walked her home (one would hope)? Or do you think that her date, be it the BS man or someone else, killed her?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

pipe man

Hello CD. Did he not feel threatened by pipe man thinking he was with BS man?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?"

I thought Schwartz was not sure to whom he spoke, but thought it was to clay pipe man.

At any rate, if BSM were ensconced in an altercation, he likely did not even notice Schwartz (nor anyone else).

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

But then why would Schwartz run off if he felt no threat from the BS man?

Hi Michael,

So it seems that we agree on the whole "Lizzie" thing. Curiouser and curiouser. Also, keep in mind that Lipski can be used as a verb so that the BS man could have been saying "you keep looking over here and I'll come over there and Lipski your ass."

c.d.

[lynn cates]

direction

Hello CD.

"It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?"

I thought Schwartz was not sure to whom he spoke, but thought it was to clay pipe man.

At any rate, if BSM were ensconced in an altercation, he likely did not even notice Schwartz (nor anyone else).

The best.
LC