Schwartz and Brown

[Fisherman]

Cd asks:

"Who was this man? You have created a character who may or may not exist and which we know absolutely nothing about."

Oh, but we do! He was about 5 ft 6, he was of a sturdy built, and he was probably better of than Stride, since he could afford to dress respectably. He was affectionate with Stride, and he was soft-spoken, giving the impression of being a man of some education.

I would not say that amounts to nothing, c.d!

" if you are going to create a character why not jazz him up a little and give him a little pizzazz? Maybe make him the Ambassador to France or give him X Ray vision like Superman. You have total carte blanche here since you are calling the shots."

For the simple reason that ordinary people are so much more ordinary than many of us would like to believe. The same thing goes for killers and murders too, as a matter of fact - more often than not, they are quite tedious affairs.

Surely, c.d, you may notice that while I throw forward such a colourless and common character as the killer of Stride, there are those who actually follow your advice and bring something a lot more fantastic than the ambassador of France on the stage - namely a ferocious, kidney-collecting, eviscerating monster of a serial killer.

One must say that they make full use of THEIR carte blanche...!

Have a nice weekend!

Fisherman

[lynn cates]

many questions

Hello CD. Well:

"I am not aware of anything on the record that shows the BS man yelled "Lizzie."

This is Fisherman's notion. Makes more sense that "Lipski."

"There is nothing to indicate that the BS man and Liz knew each other. But if they did, who could the BS man be? Kidney?"

I doubt it. Kidney would have cracked under interrogation.

"We know of no other man in her life."

Well, what did she do for a living?

"Seems like way too many questions to support the domestic argument."

Indeed, a veritable plethora of them. But only a fraction of the questions involved in a Jack scenario.

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"This is Fisherman's notion. Makes more sense that "Lipski."

I endorse the suggestion, Lynn - but it is not mine from the outset, I´m afraid! It´s been about for a good number of years by now.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

provenance

Hello Fish. Zounds! Egad! An honest man!

I don't suppose you recall the provenance?

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hi again all,

So many posts since my last I just wanted to respond to a vexation that cd had. And others.

IF Israel Schwartz did in fact see what he says he did where he says he did then the "altercation" that happens between Liz and BSM may have been nothing more than a rude attempt to grab her and take her away from her location that that she resisted.....if he lets go of his grip at all or she does, she falls.......and we do have the witness saying he saw him help her up.

This doesnt sound like an assault technically...but if an encounter with a stranger, it surely would have shaken her a bit I would think.

If Liz actually knew the man and he sort of snuck up on her and grabbed her before she knew who it was, she might have pulled back as a reflex.

Best regards

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates asks:

"I don't suppose you recall the provenance?"

It has slipped my mind, I´m afraid. But I know that for example Robert McLaughlin has written about it on these boards, in a dissertation called "Interpreting Lipski". But it goes further back than that!

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Lizzie

Hello Fish. Thanks. Whoever came up with it first, it certainly makes more sense than Lipski. Of course, I can see why a monolingual Hungarian Jew from Whitechapel would be prepared to hear otherwise.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Just a few comments:

Fisherman - How do we know that the man seen with Liz was a lover and not a client?

Lynn - Liz was a prostitute and so I am sure she had clients (i.e., men in her life) but we know of no lovers.

With regard to "Lizzie" - Schwartz was intimidated enough by the BS man so much so that he ran off. It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?

c.d.

[perrymason]

Just a few comments:

Fisherman - How do we know that the man seen with Liz was a lover and not a client?

Lynn - Liz was a prostitute and so I am sure she had clients (i.e., men in her life) but we know of no lovers.

With regard to "Lizzie" - Schwartz was intimidated enough by the BS man so much so that he ran off. It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?

c.d.

I would agree with the above cd, I dont see a call that Schwartz felt was directed at him or at Pipeman actually being directed at Liz herself.

Considering that Batty Street, a block or so away, was pivotal in the Lipksi case, and that Israel is a non english speaking Jew, a racial slur might be more appropriate.

Which would indicate that BSM is probably a Gentile, which is not what Investigators thought Jack was.

And this taunt in connection with an altercation in which a woman he just grabs falls in the process would not be something that might assure said woman that she is not in immediate danger....which the cachous in her hand indicate was her state of mind at that moment.

For Liz to have cachous in her hand so soon after an alleged altercation can mean only a few possible things....

1) She knew BSM, whether he stays with her or not.
2) She didnt know BSM, but he didnt stick around to pose an ongoing threat to her
3) She knew someone else in the yard that she went to for what she thought was safety after the altercation...disputed by the testimony of Eagle and Lave at least
4) She was in the company of people she thought would protect her from BSM
5) There was no threatening incident that happened just before she was killed

I see value in a few of those possibilities, but I feel most comfortable with number 5 at this stage.

Cheers cd

[lynn cates]

direction

Hello CD.

"It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?"

I thought Schwartz was not sure to whom he spoke, but thought it was to clay pipe man.

At any rate, if BSM were ensconced in an altercation, he likely did not even notice Schwartz (nor anyone else).

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?"

I thought Schwartz was not sure to whom he spoke, but thought it was to clay pipe man.

At any rate, if BSM were ensconced in an altercation, he likely did not even notice Schwartz (nor anyone else).

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

But then why would Schwartz run off if he felt no threat from the BS man?

Hi Michael,

So it seems that we agree on the whole "Lizzie" thing. Curiouser and curiouser. Also, keep in mind that Lipski can be used as a verb so that the BS man could have been saying "you keep looking over here and I'll come over there and Lipski your ass."

c.d.

[lynn cates]

pipe man

Hello CD. Did he not feel threatened by pipe man thinking he was with BS man?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

You seem to believe that Liz was not soliciting that night. I just don't think there is enough evidence either way to form a solid conclusion. Tom Wescott could be right in saying that perhaps Liz was on a "working date" like Martha Tabram and Pearly Poll. Meaning that she spent non-sexual time with the client with the understanding that at some point they were going to do the deed.

But how does Liz end up by herself on the street so late at night? Wouldn't her date have walked her home (one would hope)? Or do you think that her date, be it the BS man or someone else, killed her?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Did he not feel threatened by pipe man thinking he was with BS man?

The best.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Glad to see you here. Isn't it quite late where you are? 10:35 P.M. here.

I believe that he did say that but simply seeing two men together would not be enough to make him run off, would it?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

the question

Hello CD.

"But how does Liz end up by herself on the street so late at night?"

Now there's a question to be asked! And why at Berner street? Had the date begun? Had it ended? Was he a well to do Jewish lad (she had been working among the Jews) who had popped round to the club? Was she waiting on a date at the kitchen door? Was his name Kosminski? Kaminski? I'm baffled.

But you have my word, solve this mystery and I'll buy any book you care to write!

The best.
LC