Schwartz and Brown

We should route this back to the witness perspectives and which based on the final analysis seems to have Liz in a position where she is not threatened.

If either man did see her at 12:45am, she is minutes from her actual murder, maybe as few as 2 or 3.

If Schwartz saw her fall as a result of being grabbed by someone she didnt know who then yells something anti semetic at the witness, I believe she would be cautious when she stood up and brushed off.

Now.....if Schwartz saw her grabbed by someone she didnt see coming but someone she did know....a gentile man,... not a gentleman by any stretch, but someone who knew Liz enough to just grab her and yank her hand or arm in his direction.....then when she rises she might not feel cautious, but perhaps annoyed.

In that scenario, BSM could just escort her into the yard by her arm, and I could still see her taking cashous out....because she thinks she knows the man she is with and that he wont harm her. Maybe her turning to walk out the gates is when she gets an idea he might just hurt her after all....maybe the little bruises she has are "poke" marks by her assailant as he threatens her.

Best regards all.

[Fisherman]

This is an interesting discussion! As you may know, I am of the meaning that the two persons inside the yard knew each other well. My guess is that BS man may well have been identical with Marshalls man, and a possible lover of Strides.

They met earlier that evening, as seen by Marshall, and they were very friendly and affectionate, it would seem. Then, at a quarter to one o clock, they see each other again, and this time it would seem that the man is trying to drag Stride away from her position outside the yard. A possible explanation could be that he believed she was soliciting there. And, as I have pointed out before, the response Marshalls man gave Stride to something she had said could well be interpreted as Stride having made some sort of promise; to stay away from prostitution, perhaps? "You would say anything but your prayers" was what Marshalls man said.

Now, back to the scene outside the yard! The man dislikes what he sees, reminds Stride of her earlier promise, and tries to drag her away with him. She resists, and as a result, she falls to the ground. The man cries out, either "Lipski" to the passing Schwartz, or "Lizzie!" to Stride.

At this stage, Stride gets up and, miscontent with what has gone down, decides to take the man into the yard to tell him off in as much privacy as Berner Street could offer. They both go in there, him with the hope of having things cleared up and the two staying a pair, her with a decision to the contrary.

They discuss inside the yard, and Stride rounds things off by telling the man that she wants no further dealings with him. After that, she turns her back on him and heads for the gates. Somewhere along the proceedings, she has taken her cachous out - in fact, she may well do it as she sets course for Berner Street again.
At this moment, he makes a quick decision, takes out his knife, and follows her, and as he catches up, he reaches out and grabs her by her scarf with his left hand, pulling her backwards, towards him. At the same time, he guides his knife around her neck, using his right hand. She looses her balance and commences to fall to her left at the same split second that he cuts. The tightened scarf ensures her silence, and the cut causes an immediate shock making her clench her fist around the pack of cachous. As she reaches the ground, she logically ends up with her face towards the wall, lying on her left side, the body in an oblique angle to the wall.

This is how I see things.

the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

If she were making a fist to defend herself?

It's the initial moment of startled surprise - being grabbed from behind by a ruffian - that gets me, JG. I can see her forming a fist after that point, but the natural instinct, when being pulled backwards (or pushed forwards, for that matter) is to spread the palms open in order to cushion one's fall - in which case the cachous should have been history - but we don't see that here.

The tightened scarf is certainly curious, but Dr. Phillips didn't think it so tight as to have rendered her unconscious. That doesn't mean Phillips was right, but attempting to strangle someone to unconsciousness via their scarf would have taken some time and there would have been a struggle, of which there was no signs. I believe Stride fainted and her killer caught her by the scarf. The weight of her falling body would have been sufficient to cause the tightening of the scarf.

Obviously, I'm saying that the killer already had his knife out and had robbed Stride, hence her fainting. So we agree on this point, Michael.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I think deep down we agree on more than that in this murder case Tom , but its nice when we do see some evidence the same way.

The thing about the consciousness, I dont believe if Blackwell was correct in his assumption that the murder may have taken as little as 2 seconds and that she may have been cut while falling that there was any suggestion by him that she ever lost consciousness. I know there is also an opinion that she was on the ground when cut, which is Ripper-like, but if she was on her back did she roll on her side by herself after the cut, and why wouldnt that roll be shown by the mud on her garments?

It appears that she fell and died without moving.

Best regards Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

The tightened scarf is certainly curious, but Dr. Phillips didn't think it so tight as to have rendered her unconscious. That doesn't mean Phillips was right, but attempting to strangle someone to unconsciousness via their scarf would have taken some time and there would have been a struggle, of which there was no signs. I believe Stride fainted and her killer caught her by the scarf. The weight of her falling body would have been sufficient to cause the tightening of the scarf.

Obviously, I'm saying that the killer already had his knife out and had robbed Stride, hence her fainting. So we agree on this point, Michael.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Mascara,

I think Stride may have fainted before the wound was inflicted. As you pointed out, the evidence is consistent with her being unconscious, but the very able Dr. Phillips could find nothing to suggest she'd been rendered unconscious by violence or poison.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

There is actually no investigative need to suggest that Liz ever lost any consciousness during the attack....it may have lasted 2 seconds by Blackwells remarks, and it may have begun with a choking of her from behind by her scarf...it was twisted tightly.

She may have had her throat cut while on the ground, or "while falling".

The killer most certainly has a knife in his hands when he grabs the scarf, its logistically unreasonable to assume he grabs her then takes out the knife...so Liz is one of 2 Canonicals that has her attacker begin the attack while brandishing a knife.....3 victims do not show that as being the case, and no surprise, they are the ones with abdominal post mortem mutilations.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Mascara,

I think Stride may have fainted before the wound was inflicted. As you pointed out, the evidence is consistent with her being unconscious, but the very able Dr. Phillips could find nothing to suggest she'd been rendered unconscious by violence or poison.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jon Guy]

I believe the blood on her right hand was due to her raising her arm towards her throat, possibly the moment it was cut, as she would have died instantaneously, as all the major arteries on the left side had been severed with a deep cut, no time to put hands to the throat. The left hand had slightly relaxed after death.

If she had to make a fist quickly, as we know she had to, and this was Liz Stride. Like me, she wouldn`t drop the cashous, she would make the fist around the cashous, as this can also make a better fist.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

But wouldn't someone in Stride's position have clutched at their throat with both hands to stem the bleeding, whether it was a lost cause or not? Her throat wound wasn't as deep as the others' and didn't completely sever the neck, so I doubt she would've died as instaneously as they did, so how and why she kept hold of those breath sweeteners is a bit of a mystery.

[Jon Guy]

I will say, however, that Liz clutching onto the cachous as she was presumably being flung backwards with a knife at her throat is a bit tricky to explain, whether she knew her assailant or not.

Hi Sam

If she were making a fist to defend herself?

[harry]

Perhaps Stride was not expecting a male person,but hoping a female aquaintance with whom she could spend the night,might chance by.That she was waiting by the yard is something else that is argueable,it may be that she was only passing the yard when the encounter took place.As for an assault taking place,it should be clear by now that except for Stride's falling to the ground,cause of which has never been clearly established,there is not even circumstancial evidence to establish BS man had a hand in her death.My opinion,she was the female seen by Brown in the company of pipeman,that she left that person on the corner of Berner and Fairclough streets,and walked into Berner Street.The time element leaves little in the way of opportunity,for any other person to be present.That"maybe some other time",came more quickly than she expected.

[lynn cates]

upbeat

Hello Mike. Right you are. And most of the reports concerning Liz that night indicated she was upbeat--even in the post-mortem she was described as placid. I take it she was expecting a really great time that night.

Pity.

Cheers.
LC

I would think that a very reasonable case exists for the theory that Liz Stride had plans to spend that evening, all evening, with a man......that man may not be Eagle as you suggest Roy, but it stands to reason he has some connection to that immediate location...she stays near there from around 12:35 on.

He speaks English...not all of the club attendees at that point do...they are singing in Russian apparently. So we need an English speaking man, and single with a room, so he can take Liz home with him for the night.

Her actions and comments when leaving the lodging house she stays at are integral to her longer term evening plans.....and they do not include her believing she needed a paid for bed that night.

Best regards all

[Fisherman]

Tom W asks:

"Do you have an idea of who Marshall's man might have been?"

None whatsoever, Tom. But he was a stout man, soft spoken with the respectable appearance of a clerk, dressed in a black jacked and a peaked cap ... It says BS man all over him, methinks.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman,

Do you have an idea of who Marshall's man might have been?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott