Fanny Mortimer

[FrankO]

Is b-s man JtR?

I don't think so, but he could have been.

Did Stride go into the yard willingly, reluctantly, or forcibly (but not very loudly)?

If she was murdered by Mr. Broad Shoulders, I don't think she went there forcibly in the sense of being dragged there, as there were no signs of that having happened, but other than that I can't say much. Seeing that the man seems to have almost immediately become physical, I don't think she went there either because she really wanted to, but perhaps she proposed to go there to have a bit of privacy to resolve whatever problem he had with her. The fact that she screamed but not very loudly would support the notion that she didn't want to attract attention to their quarrel.

I thought the second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder.

You're confusing Mr. Pipeman with Mr. Knifeman and I don't particularly believe in Mr. Knifeman.

Question; the warning was shouted in which language?

The thing that Mr. Broad Shoulders shouted? I don't know. It seems that "Lipski" was the only thing Schwartz could make out, if more than one word was shouted, that is.

Did Schwartz make it clear to the police, that he understood what the men were saying, and in which language they were speaking?

As far as we can determine, the answer to that question should be in the negative.

Diemschitz: The doctor arrived about ten minutes after the police came.

Which is close enough to what Lamb said, although I think Lamb is more reliable for the reason you mentioned before: A bobbie's sense of time, is not to be dismissed lightly.

Do you suppose Louis made the distinction between doctor, and assistant doctor, at the murder scene, or was his mind occupied by other matters?

No, I don't suppose that. I can imagine Johnson presenting himself to Lamb as Blackwell's assistant without Diemshutz hearing it or paying attention to it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If she was murdered by Mr. Broad Shoulders, I don't think she went there forcibly in the sense of being dragged there, as there were no signs of that having happened, but other than that I can't say much. Seeing that the man seems to have almost immediately become physical, I don't think she went there either because she really wanted to, but perhaps she proposed to go there to have a bit of privacy to resolve whatever problem he had with her. The fact that she screamed but not very loudly would support the notion that she didn't want to attract attention to their quarrel.

She seems very forgiving! She also seems unable to read any warning signs.

You're confusing Mr. Pipeman with Mr. Knifeman and I don't particularly believe in Mr. Knifeman.

There was only one man (at most), who briefly stood on The Nelson corner.
But what was that object he held to his mouth, with the metallic glint to it?

The thing that Mr. Broad Shoulders shouted? I don't know. It seems that "Lipski" was the only thing Schwartz could make out, if more than one word was shouted, that is.

The more words shouted, the more likely that someone else is alerted to the situation.
It would be a matter of subjective probability, in deciding how likely that the shouting consisted of a single word - a word meaningful to a non-English speaker.

As far as we can determine, the answer to that question should be in the negative.

The answer must be negative, else the whole non-English speaking witness with interpreter, is a facade.

Changing the subject a bit, have you ever had thoughts on when Wess was first alerted to the murder?
By the time Diemschitz and Kozebrodski reached Grove street, they are quite close to Wess, at 2 William street.
Interesting that Louis did not request Isaacs continue on to that address, and arouse the secretary.

[FrankO]

There was only one man (at most), who briefly stood on The Nelson corner.
But what was that object he held to his mouth, with the metallic glint to it?

He was standing lighting the clay pipe he had in his hand.

The answer must be negative, else the whole non-English speaking witness with interpreter, is a facade.

Quite so, Andrew.

Changing the subject a bit, have you ever had thoughts on when Wess was first alerted to the murder?

Not really.

By the time Diemschitz and Kozebrodski reached Grove street, they are quite close to Wess, at 2 William street.
Interesting that Louis did not request Isaacs continue on to that address, and arouse the secretary.

It's indeed an interesting thought, Andrew, although I don't think the evidence allows for Isaacs/Kozebrodski to first inform Wess and then be in time to join Eagle in finding Lamb along Commercial Road.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He was standing lighting the clay pipe he had in his hand.

Or was it?

Translate 'Pfeife' to 'Pipe'

Note the detected language - German.

The most common meanings of Pfeife:

1. whistle
2. pipe

12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen [sic - Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at this hour, on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway...

The Hungarian states positively that he saw a [pfeife] in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

Heshburg: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway.

It's indeed an interesting thought, Andrew, although I don't think the evidence allows for Isaacs/Kozebrodski to first inform Wess and then be in time to join Eagle in finding Lamb along Commercial Road.

No, I don't think that happened, either.
However, I do wonder if Wess and Diemschitz stayed 'in sync' - that is, did Wess turn up in the morning, only to be bombarded with stories about the murder, the police, and a man being chased up Fairclough street at a quarter to one, possibly over reacted, only to find that Diemschitz had already told police and the press that he had arrived right on 1am, and probably interrupted the murderer?
I also wonder if, consequently, this lack of coordination was the catalyst for Schwartz' trip to the police station.

[Michael W Richards]

Issac Kozebroski in his own words, partially ..."I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards."

Therefore Issac K is not Issac[s], and its far more likely that it was an Issacs that accompanied him when considering Issac K's quote.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Therefore Issac K is not Issac[s], and its far more likely that it was an Issacs that accompanied him when considering Issac K's quote.

I won't get into that argument again right now, but it's interesting to note that this ...

Kozebrodski: I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

... does not align with this ...

Diemschitz: A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
Baxter: Had the constables arrived then?
Diemschitz: At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.

If the searches were sequential, it cannot have been at the very same moment!
Was the following, also a bit off the mark...?

Diemschitz: On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Questions of wording become far less significant if the events make sense. Diemschutz and Kozebrodski turn right out of the yard and Eagle goes left. Diemschutz meets Spooner on the way back who returns to the yard with him. Kozebrodski continues into Commercial Road and sees Constable Ayliffe at approximately the same time that Eagle approaches Lamb from the opposite direction. They all return to the yard.

Kozebrodski was very obviously wrong in his timing as we know that he was simply guessing. Brown hears people going along Fairclough Street at just after 1.00.

.......

Witnesses guessing times aren’t always reliable of course. That said I’d say that a policeman with no watch is more likely to be closer due to the nature of his job. Blackwell had a watch and so can be trusted. Diemschutz saw a clock at 1.00. The use of the word ‘precisely’ by Diemschutz is red herring of course as shown by Frank. Diemschutz would have had a fairly accurate idea of how long it took to drive his cart from the top of Berner’s Streetto the yard because he’d have done it numerous times. So he’d have known that it took him under a minute therefore it would still have been 1.00 when he arrived. And even if it was actually 1.01 are we really suggesting dismissing his evidence on the basis of under a minute?

[FrankO]

Issac Kozebroski in his own words, partially ..."I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards."

Therefore Issac K is not Issac[s], and its far more likely that it was an Issacs that accompanied him when considering Issac K's quote.

Times, 1 October 1888:
"It was Louis Diemsschütz, the steward of the club who found the body. Diemsschütz, who is a traveller in cheap jewelry, had spent the day at Westow-hill, near the Crystal Palace, on business, and had driven home at his usual hour, reaching Berner-street at 1 o'clock. On turning into the gateway he had some difficulty with his pony, the animal being apparently determined to avoid the right-hand wall. For the moment Diemsschütz did not think much of the occurrence, because he knew the pony was given to shying, and he thought, perhaps, some mud or refuse was in the way. The pony, however, obstinately refused to go straight; so the driver pulled him up to see what was in the way. Failing to discover anything in the darkness, Diemsschütz poked about with the handle of his whip, and then discovered the body. He entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert-room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain. The heart had ceased to beat. Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman."

Did the reporter just dream up the name Kozebrodski?

[Michael W Richards]

Times, 1 October 1888:
"It was Louis Diemsschütz, the steward of the club who found the body. Diemsschütz, who is a traveller in cheap jewelry, had spent the day at Westow-hill, near the Crystal Palace, on business, and had driven home at his usual hour, reaching Berner-street at 1 o'clock. On turning into the gateway he had some difficulty with his pony, the animal being apparently determined to avoid the right-hand wall. For the moment Diemsschütz did not think much of the occurrence, because he knew the pony was given to shying, and he thought, perhaps, some mud or refuse was in the way. The pony, however, obstinately refused to go straight; so the driver pulled him up to see what was in the way. Failing to discover anything in the darkness, Diemsschütz poked about with the handle of his whip, and then discovered the body. He entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert-room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. It was at once apparent that the woman was dead. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain. The heart had ceased to beat. Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman."

Did the reporter just dream up the name Kozebrodski?

What you have quoted is a summary of a statement, given second hand. I dont dispute the fact that people assume it was Issac K he referred to. I will howevere refer you to read Mr Kozebroski's quote, which clearly suggests a discovery time of earlier than 12:45, a request by Louis or some other member to go for help, and his then going for help. There is no mention of his accompanying anyone, and it does include his meeting up with Eagle on his return. Just after 1.

Lets put it this way, the math doesnt support Louis.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What you have quoted is a summary of a statement, given second hand. I dont dispute the fact that people assume it was Issac K he referred to. I will howevere refer you to read Mr Kozebroski's quote, which clearly suggests a discovery time of earlier than 12:45, a request by Louis or some other member to go for help, and his then going for help. There is no mention of his accompanying anyone, and it does include his meeting up with Eagle on his return. Just after 1.

How do you reconcile the notion of Kozebrodski going out alone, with this...?

Edward Spooner: ... I was standing outside the Beehive Tavern, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street along with a young woman. I had been standing there about five-and-twenty minutes when two Jews came running along hallooing out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They said, "There's a woman murdered in Berner-street in the yard by No. 40."

Perhaps Diemschitz and Kozebrodski ran far enough apart, that it could have been perceived that they ran separately?

Diemschitz: I did not touch the body, but went off at once for the police. I passed several streets without seeing a policeman, and returned without one. As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in her throat.

Perhaps the lead man was...?

... a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street ...

Perhaps Edward Spooner was one of 'the public', who witnessed this 'chase'?

Perhaps the lead man ran as far as the railway arch, but the other man did not follow so far?

[FrankO]

I dont dispute the fact that people assume it was Issac K he referred to.

Why don't you simply say: yes, the Kozebrodski in this article is my "Issac K", but I put (much) less stock in it than in the interview with him because that's a direct quote? That is something I would respect, Michael. The way you've put it now suggests very much that you simply can't get yourself to admit that the Kozebrodski in the snippet of the Times of 1 October has to be the same as your "Issac K".

Lets put it this way, the math doesnt support Louis.

But why then would Diemshutz say to press & police that, when he ran out of the yard shortly after one o'clock, he'd returned with a man (Spooner), who, according to your theory, had already arrived in the yard some 20 minutes earlier?

[Michael W Richards]

Why don't you simply say: yes, the Kozebrodski in this article is my "Issac K", but I put (much) less stock in it than in the interview with him because that's a direct quote? That is something I would respect, Michael. The way you've put it now suggests very much that you simply can't get yourself to admit that the Kozebrodski in the snippet of the Times of 1 October has to be the same as your "Issac K".

But why then would Diemshutz say to press & police that, when he ran out of the yard shortly after one o'clock, he'd returned with a man (Spooner), who, according to your theory, had already arrived in the yard some 20 minutes earlier?

Its not some sinister plot here Franko, and to quote the man I suggest was lying in the first place about what happened isnt going to work. The fact that Issac Kozebrodski, an apprentice at the club, said he was in that passageway at around 12:40-12:45 with Louis and other men is enough of a red flag against Louis, then when he says he was sent, not that he "went", ...well, its clear that no-one told Issac about this apparently shocking conspiracy to avoid any blame on the club. Which is why their statements dont help each other, like Eagles and Lave helps Louis's. Spooner doesnt help Louis either, nor does Fanny Mortimer.

In Issacs case, note the lack of []..., we have a direct quote given shortly after the murder that night. in Israels case we have a full day before we hear Liz was actually still on the street at 12:45...albeit not seen there by anyone with a view of that street during that time.

Im still surprised after all these years that people dont seem to get the fact that lying to save ones skin, whether the threat is dire or not, is something everyone does all the time. In this instance we have a threat to the club in the form of a murder on their property and watch. The police feel this is an anarchist club, and the neighbours report seeing "low men" about that passageway and street after meetings. Not a great rep. If the police come to a conclusion that the murderer was from that group, the club closes, perhaps others, and men lose their livelihood's. And in Laves case, maybe his digs.

Louis and Morris discuss what to do before going out themselves, that satisfies the officials recollections on timing, so what is the real objection to this perspective? Its based on human nature and the obvious threat to that club. Its why Morris and Louis dont jive with multiple members accounts of a murder awareness before 12:45. They had to have a story, the others had no stake in what happened to the club other than perhaps losing a watering hole.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Spooner doesnt help Louis either

Yes he does. He got to the yard 5 minutes before Lamb. So it’s bang on. In the other part of his statement he said that he was talking for 25 minutes between 12.30 and 1.00. Which means 12.55 latest which is less than 10 minutes out. Spooner confirms Diemschutz.

does Fanny Mortimer

Apart from hearing him return at 1.00 of course (but not hearing him return at 12.35)

. Im still surprised after all these years that people dont seem to get the fact that lying to save ones skin, whether the threat is dire or not, is something everyone does all the time. In this instance we have a threat to the club in the form of a murder on their property and watch. The police feel this is an anarchist club, and the neighbours report seeing "low men" about that passageway and street after meetings. Not a great rep. If the police come to a conclusion that the murderer was from that group, the club closes, perhaps others, and men lose their livelihood's

Even if there was reason for a cover-up (and there wasn’t) it doesn’t mean that there was one.

Can anyone believe that the police would have tried to close down a club because Jack The Ripper killed in its yard? Even if it wasn’t the ripper a woman with her throat cut was always going to be suspected of being by him.

multiple members accounts of a murder awareness before 12:45.

You keep repeating the same fallacy about these 4 witnesses. 1 of them doesn’t even mention an earlier time. He backs up Diemschutz. Only a conspiracy theorist would view this as suspicious. Spooner is dismissed as above. Hoschberg heard the police whistle so he’s very easily dismissed and Kozebrodski simply guessed the time and got it wrong.

These 4 witnesses do not by any stretch back up an earlier discovery time.

Mortimer was back inside when Schwartz past. Simple.

No mystery here except in the imagination.

Diemschutz discovered the body at 1.00 + or - a minute or so. Not a shred of doubt.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes he does. He got to the yard 5 minutes before Lamb. So it’s bang on. In the other part of his statement he said that he was talking for 25 minutes between 12.30 and 1.00. Which means 12.55 latest which is less than 10 minutes out. Spooner confirms Diemschutz.

Bang on what?
According to Lamb in the DN, DT, MA & Times, he was alerted to the situation...

At about one o'clock...

...shortly before one o'clock...

About one o'clock on Sunday morning...

About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell...

Lamb does not confirm Diemschitz, so how does this...?

Spooner: I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.

Apart from hearing him return at 1.00 of course (but not hearing him return at 12.35)

Mortimer was back inside when Schwartz past. Simple.

I've explained to you previously, why these two statements together, don't make much sense...

You have Fanny back inside at 12:45, and yet you suppose that Louis really did get home at 1am or very soon after.
So by the time the body has been found, then observed by other club people, then police searched for by LD and IK, who are unsuccessful but return with Ed Spooner, the time must be getting close to 1:10.
It is only at that point (whatever the true time may be), that Fanny enters the yard. We know this to be true for two reasons.

One: Louis is in the yard...

I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

Two: Someone who sounds very like Spooner is also in the yard...

...on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm...

This occurs soon after Fanny has gone inside for the night...

I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out...

So if (according to you), Fanny is inside by 12:45, and Louis does not see the clock until 1am, then the 'just' in Fanny's 'just gone indoors', amounts to all of 25 minutes.

Can anyone believe that the police would have tried to close down a club because Jack The Ripper killed in its yard? Even if it wasn’t the ripper a woman with her throat cut was always going to be suspected of being by him.

If you say so. However, no matter what the police might do to look for links between murders, they are always going to treat each murder as a separate event.
The police are therefore looking for the murderer, not 'Jack the Ripper'.

You keep repeating the same fallacy about these 4 witnesses. 1 of them doesn’t even mention an earlier time. He backs up Diemschutz. Only a conspiracy theorist would view this as suspicious. Spooner is dismissed as above. Hoschberg heard the police whistle so he’s very easily dismissed and Kozebrodski simply guessed the time and got it wrong.

These 4 witnesses do not by any stretch back up an earlier discovery time.

Perhaps Spooner is dismissed for confirming Diemschitz?

Hershberg is very easily dismissed, but would that dismissal be valid?

Kozebrodski may have guessed a little early (just as Brown guessed late), but PC Smith did not guess, and did not get it wrong.
Smith disconfirms Diemschitz.

No mystery here except in the imagination.

Diemschutz discovered the body at 1.00 + or - a minute or so. Not a shred of doubt.

So I take it the planned rethink was a success?

Thanks for that Frank. That’s less time than I’d allowed for which is good for my planned re-think

The 2 officers were certainly already there then. It was worth asking.

[FrankO]

Its not some sinister plot here Franko,...

I don’t claim it to be a sinister plot, Michael. In fact, it’s quite easy to understand. It’s just that I put very little stock in the timings of the 3 witnesses you put forward as showing that Diemshutz was by the body as early as around 12:40 am.

and to quote the man I suggest was lying in the first place about what happened isnt going to work.

You confuse me, Michael. I thought that your position is that Diemshutz lied about when he discovered the body, not about his going in search of a policeman along Fairclough Street just after 1 am. Are you now saying that you’ve changed that position?

However, it doesn’t matter with regards to the point I’m making. Which is that, according to you, Spooner was brought back to the yard by 2 unknown club members who’d gone down Fairclough Street as far as Grove Street to find a policeman and then, without finding one, returned with Spooner to the yard at around 12:40 am, where he then lifted the chin of the woman. Then, Diemshutz told press, police & inquest that, shortly after 1 am, he also ran out of the yard along Fairclough Street and, also without finding a policeman, he, too, returned with a man he’d met along the way to the yard who did the exact same thing Spooner did (i.e. lift the woman’s head).

So, the question remains, why would it be a smart thing for a lying Diemshutz to include a copy of what Spooner told if Spooner was supposed to have already arrived in the yard some 20 minutes earlier?

The fact that Issac Kozebrodski, an apprentice at the club, said he was in that passageway at around 12:40-12:45 with Louis and other men is enough of a red flag against Louis,...

It would have been if timings back then weren’t as unreliable as they were. Especially when there’s no evidence of the estimate of time was made by way of a clock. Only two witnesses claim to have watched a clock: Diemshutz and Blackwell.

then when he says he was sent, not that he "went", ...well, its clear that no-one told Issac about this apparently shocking conspiracy to avoid any blame on the club.

Which is another not too smart thing for Diemshutz & Co to do if they were trying to cover up the fact that he had found the body just before 12:40 am.

Which is why their statements dont help each other, like Eagles and Lave helps Louis's. Spooner doesnt help Louis either, nor does Fanny Mortimer.

It would be, at the very least, a rather questionable attempt at a cover up if they couldn’t even get Eagle and Lave to tell stories that would have matched with regards to their timings. It should have been quite easy to achieve that, shouldn’t it? Just have both of them say that they looked at a clock right/shortly after leaving or entering and don’t have these timings intertwine.