Hutch's Man

[harry]

Jon ,
Quite true the initial timing was from church clocks,and if both Lewis and Hutchinson are correct,we have Hutchinson arriving at the court about 2.15,and Lewis,according to her testimony,arriving at 2.30.Again Jon, it was you that first mentioned watch.So what I think could not have happened is,both Hutchinson and Lewis arriving in Dorset Street within seconds of each other, and seeing the same couple,would describe the situation differently.

[Joshua Rogan]

At least two newspapers, one being the Star, boldly claimed that Cox had seen the murderer, that the murderer was Blotchy.

It might be worth noting that the Star reporter left the inquest to file his copy after Cox's evidence but before Lewis took the stand.

[Wickerman]

The loiterer was of great interest from Friday on, and is likely the primary reason we finally see a Pardon for Accomplices on the table Saturday afternoon. I think its safe to assume they wondered if this man was on the lookout for someone already in the room with Mary at the time.

Yes!, I think you are right Michael.
It was believed Mary was already dead by 2:00 (or thereabouts), so the Coroner was interested in this loiterer because he may have been an accomplice, and the killer was still in Mary's room when Lewis came to Millers Court.

At least two newspapers, one being the Star, boldly claimed that Cox had seen the murderer, that the murderer was Blotchy.

We can imagine the faces of Scotland Yard when Hutchinson walked in to Commercial Street Station, and said what he did.

There is a problem then with the cry heard at 3:45..no-one claimed that cry out, that means it could have been from the only woman in the court who couldn't claim it later. If it was Mary, then she is just encountering her killer and still very much intact.

If that's the case, then the killer could have lots of time in the room, and to still get out of it quietly before sunrise. There is a report that states Elizabeth knocked on Marys room that morning around 5, as she was heading out to market. Too bad she didn't glance in the window, we could have saved 'Corrie" Maxwell some confrontation.

Perhaps the Coroner was pleased when Prater claimed these cries were a common occurrence. This gets him off the hook in needing to explain how the cry fit the theory, if Kelly was already dead.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
It is you that is questioning Hutchinson's accuracy also.You could be wrong.He may have had a watch,despite your doubts.

Harry.

Hutchinson said this:
"I am able to fix the time, as it was between ten and five minutes to two o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church."
(This church is down on Whitechapel High St.)

And...
"When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck three o'clock".
(This was Spitalfields church at the end of Dorset street)

If he wore a watch, he wouldn't have judged the time by two different the church clocks.
C'mon Harry, put your thinking cap on.

Lewis may have been wrong about the time.These are unknowns.I know she was referring to tthe church clock.That may have been wrong.

I know it could have been wrong, but both Lewis and Hutchinson referred to the same Spitalfields clock, and so did Kennedy, so it doesn't really matter if the clock was wrong. They are all wrong by the same amount.

The distance to the court however can be gauged more accurately.and the sequence of events,as you describe them, could not have happened.She would have observed the couple standing still.H er evidence states otherwise.

This argument is not clear. Lewis does not say if the couple was standing still for any length of time.
I think the distance from the end of Dorset street to Millers Court was about 110ft on the Goads Plan, so what is it you think could not have happened?

[Michael W Richards]

I see what you mean Joshua, but this was not a Stride murder. No-one just killed Kelly and left. Whoever the killer was he was estimated to have been occupied for how long, an hour or two?, so he would still be there when Lewis arrived.
The Coroner was interested in the loiterer, only seen by Lewis.
And, if we assume Kelly was dead at this time, then the coroner may have queried what was the role of this loiterer?
The other person the coroner showed interest in was the man outside the Britannia, again, seen by Lewis.

The loiterer was of great interest from Friday on, and is likely the primary reason we finally see a Pardon for Accomplices on the table Saturday afternoon. I think its safe to assume they wondered if this man was on the lookout for someone already in the room with Mary at the time. There is a problem then with the cry heard at 3:45..no-one claimed that cry out, that means it could have been from the only woman in the court who couldn't claim it later. If it was Mary, then she is just encountering her killer and still very much intact.

If that's the case, then the killer could have lots of time in the room, and to still get out of it quietly before sunrise. There is a report that states Elizabeth knocked on Marys room that morning around 5, as she was heading out to market. Too bad she didn't glance in the window, we could have saved 'Corrie" Maxwell some confrontation.

[harry]

Jon,
It is you that is questioning Hutchinson's accuracy also.You could be wrong.He may have had a watch,despite your doubts.Lewis may have been wrong about the time.These are unknowns.I know she was referring to tthe church clock.That may have been wrong.
The distance to the court however can be gauged more accurately.and the sequence of events,as you describe them, could not have happened.She would have observed the couple standing still.H er evidence states otherwise.

[Sam Flynn]

Hutchinson says he watched Astrachan from his position outside the Queen's Head pub. This was before Astrachan and Mary Kelly had reached him. But at that position you can only see someone when they reach the corner of Fashion Street. How can Hutchinson have watched Astrachan before he approached when he would've been out of his eyeline?

Quite. Hutchinson's testimony is full of holes.

[Curious Cat]

I see no issue here, no-one else has either.

If you read Hutchinson's statement sentence by sentence, he does not say he could see them down by Thrawl st.
- Hutch meets Mary between Thrawl St. and Flower & Dean. This is where they talked.
- Kelly walks by herself towards Thrawl st.
- Either at, or just before Thrawl st. Kelly meets Astrachan. They exchange words and Hutch could hear them, but Hutch does not say where he was standing.
- Hutch then stands under the Queens Head lamp, 74 Comm. street, (on N/E corner of Fashion st. and Comm. St.) where he waited for them both to pass him by.

So, the bit you are missing is where Hutch says he could hear their exchange, you do not know where he was standing.

From what Hutch says it seems Kelly & Astrachan stopped for a moment by or near Thrawl street. While he (Hutch) was still standing where Kelly left him - part way between Thrawl and Flower & Dean. Only feet away from them.
At some point they had to begin walking back towards him (Hutch), obviously the light was not good enough where Hutch was standing (just south of Flower & Dean) so he walked on ahead of them to the first good lamp - outside the Queens Head. Where he waited for them to pass.

Where is there a problem?

Hutchinson says he watched Astrachan from his position outside the Queen's Head pub. This was before Astrachan and Mary Kelly had reached him. But at that position you can only see someone when they reach the corner of Fashion Street. How can Hutchinson have watched Astrachan before he approached when he would've been out of his eyeline?

[Curious Cat]

It's likely fair to accept that few of the replies attributed to Lewis are her actual words.
Everyone, from the court recorder to members of the press likely paraphrased her words. So we cannot be completely sure which are her words and which are paraphrase.



Given that Hodgkinson the recorder merely wrote, "a man & a woman passed along", it should be clear the court had no interest in these two people. And, there was no reason they should, they were two unknowns. So, whatever else Sarah Lewis said about them was not captured.

You are looking at her testimony as if that is all there is to it, and if she didn't say something, then it never happened. Which tells me you are not familiar with these court proceedings.
Very little is reported in the press concerning these two strangers, and the Times didn't even bother mentioning them at all.

Mary Cox had already given her evidence before Lewis, the press subsequently announced it was Cox who had seen the murderer - Blotchy.
Dr. Phillips, who was present & the Coroner Mcdonald, who was also a physician, both likely knew about Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, which was written on the 10th. This time correlated very well with the possibility that Blotchy has killed Mary between 1:00 - 2:00 am.

What possible interest would the court have in two strangers seen by Sarah Lewis?

However, it was the sudden appearance of Hutchinson after the inquest which threw the investigation into a spin.
Now, they have a witness who claims that Kelly was alive after 2:00am, but the inquest was over.

Posters here have tried to argue this couple going up the court would be important, not so. By the time Lewis gave her evidence the court had already heard enough to accept that Kelly was dead by 2:00am, and the later cry of murder was just another of those regular false alarms heard from time to time.

Surely that in itself suggests Sarah Lewis made no mention of them going into/up/through the passage, otherwise the court would have been interested in further details and ask more questions.

So where do you get that Sarah Lewis saw the couple entered the passage?

[Wickerman]

Jon,
How did Hutchinson measure three minutes?He counted one-two-three.
Seriously,the time is approximate,but it must have appeared to him( Hutchinson) a reasonably lengthy period.More I would say,than the few seconds it would have taken Lewis to reach the court,if the situation had been how you describe.

Yes, both his "three minutes" and his "forty five minutes" were estimates.

But back to your point, you questioned Hutch's accuracy?
I put more value in a sequence of events, and I've said so more than once. Precisely because we cannot always depend on the times given. It is not necessary to blindly insist on Kelly & Astrachan standing for three minutes, what is necessary is that they stood there sufficient time to say & do what was described. That is all.
If that would only take 90 seconds, then so be it.

[Wickerman]

This makes no sense Jon. To use your own argument, what possible interest would the court have in hearing Lewis' evidence at all, if they already believed Kelly was dead by the time Sarah arrived at the Keyler's?

I see what you mean Joshua, but this was not a Stride murder. No-one just killed Kelly and left. Whoever the killer was he was estimated to have been occupied for how long, an hour or two?, so he would still be there when Lewis arrived.
The Coroner was interested in the loiterer, only seen by Lewis.
And, if we assume Kelly was dead at this time, then the coroner may have queried what was the role of this loiterer?
The other person the coroner showed interest in was the man outside the Britannia, again, seen by Lewis.

[Joshua Rogan]

It's likely fair to accept that few of the replies attributed to Lewis are her actual words.
Everyone, from the court recorder to members of the press likely paraphrased her words. So we cannot be completely sure which are her words and which are paraphrase.



Given that Hodgkinson the recorder merely wrote, "a man & a woman passed along", it should be clear the court had no interest in these two people. And, there was no reason they should, they were two unknowns. So, whatever else Sarah Lewis said about them was not captured.

You are looking at her testimony as if that is all there is to it, and if she didn't say something, then it never happened. Which tells me you are not familiar with these court proceedings.
Very little is reported in the press concerning these two strangers, and the Times didn't even bother mentioning them at all.

Mary Cox had already given her evidence before Lewis, the press subsequently announced it was Cox who had seen the murderer - Blotchy.
Dr. Phillips, who was present & the Coroner Mcdonald, who was also a physician, both likely knew about Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, which was written on the 10th. This time correlated very well with the possibility that Blotchy has killed Mary between 1:00 - 2:00 am.

What possible interest would the court have in two strangers seen by Sarah Lewis?

However, it was the sudden appearance of Hutchinson after the inquest which threw the investigation into a spin.
Now, they have a witness who claims that Kelly was alive after 2:00am, but the inquest was over.

Posters here have tried to argue this couple going up the court would be important, not so. By the time Lewis gave her evidence the court had already heard enough to accept that Kelly was dead by 2:00am, and the later cry of murder was just another of those regular false alarms heard from time to time.

This makes no sense Jon. To use your own argument, what possible interest would the court have in hearing Lewis' evidence at all, if they already believed Kelly was dead by the time Sarah arrived at the Keyler's?

[harry]

Jon,
How did Hutchinson measure three minutes?He counted one-two-three.
Seriously,the time is approximate,but it must have appeared to him( Hutchinson) a reasonably lengthy period.More I would say,than the few seconds it would have taken Lewis to reach the court,if the situation had been how you describe.

[Wickerman]

Whatever the order of the events in her account were given, she still doesn't say the couple entered the passage.

It's likely fair to accept that few of the replies attributed to Lewis are her actual words.
Everyone, from the court recorder to members of the press likely paraphrased her words. So we cannot be completely sure which are her words and which are paraphrase.

She wouldn't be able to miss two people stopping at or entering No.13. She make no mention of having such a close encounter with them at such a crucial point. The loiterer and the couple Lewis describes are all in Dorset Street as they are all ahead of her. Only she of the four people enters the passage.

Given that Hodgkinson the recorder merely wrote, "a man & a woman passed along", it should be clear the court had no interest in these two people. And, there was no reason they should, they were two unknowns. So, whatever else Sarah Lewis said about them was not captured.

You are looking at her testimony as if that is all there is to it, and if she didn't say something, then it never happened. Which tells me you are not familiar with these court proceedings.
Very little is reported in the press concerning these two strangers, and the Times didn't even bother mentioning them at all.

Mary Cox had already given her evidence before Lewis, the press subsequently announced it was Cox who had seen the murderer - Blotchy.
Dr. Phillips, who was present & the Coroner Mcdonald, who was also a physician, both likely knew about Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, which was written on the 10th. This time correlated very well with the possibility that Blotchy has killed Mary between 1:00 - 2:00 am.

What possible interest would the court have in two strangers seen by Sarah Lewis?

However, it was the sudden appearance of Hutchinson after the inquest which threw the investigation into a spin.
Now, they have a witness who claims that Kelly was alive after 2:00am, but the inquest was over.

Posters here have tried to argue this couple going up the court would be important, not so. By the time Lewis gave her evidence the court had already heard enough to accept that Kelly was dead by 2:00am, and the later cry of murder was just another of those regular false alarms heard from time to time.

[Wickerman]

I have stood outside the Queen's Head pub on Commercial Street and looked south. He would not have been able to see Mary Kelly and Astrachan until they were at the southern corner of Fashion Street. How could he have seen what they were doing before they reached that point?

I see no issue here, no-one else has either.

If you read Hutchinson's statement sentence by sentence, he does not say he could see them down by Thrawl st.
- Hutch meets Mary between Thrawl St. and Flower & Dean. This is where they talked.
- Kelly walks by herself towards Thrawl st.
- Either at, or just before Thrawl st. Kelly meets Astrachan. They exchange words and Hutch could hear them, but Hutch does not say where he was standing.
- Hutch then stands under the Queens Head lamp, 74 Comm. street, (on N/E corner of Fashion st. and Comm. St.) where he waited for them both to pass him by.

So, the bit you are missing is where Hutch says he could hear their exchange, you do not know where he was standing.

From what Hutch says it seems Kelly & Astrachan stopped for a moment by or near Thrawl street. While he (Hutch) was still standing where Kelly left him - part way between Thrawl and Flower & Dean. Only feet away from them.
At some point they had to begin walking back towards him (Hutch), obviously the light was not good enough where Hutch was standing (just south of Flower & Dean) so he walked on ahead of them to the first good lamp - outside the Queens Head. Where he waited for them to pass.

Where is there a problem?