Maxwell

[DVV]

Maxwell qualité filtre, I must say.

[Wickerman]

Maxwell qualité filtre, I must say.

The annoying thing about Maxwell's statement is, if we had no medical opinion to go by concerning time of death the evidence provided by the three people, especially Maxwell, would be sufficiently solid to prove Kelly was murdered after 9:00 am.

We have been convinced by less....

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

The annoying thing about Maxwell's statement is, if we had no medical opinion to go by concerning time of death the evidence provided by the three people, especially Maxwell, would be sufficiently solid to prove Kelly was murdered after 9:00 am.

We have been convinced by less....

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon

not sure imo, because Maurice Lewis didn't know Mary the victim, as it seems.
But more importantly, had she been drinking that morning, more people would have seen her, don't you think ?

Best wishes

[curious]

The annoying thing about Maxwell's statement is, if we had no medical opinion to go by concerning time of death the evidence provided by the three people, especially Maxwell, would be sufficiently solid to prove Kelly was murdered after 9:00 am.

We have been convinced by less....

Regards, Jon S.

What I find annoying is that such flimsy testimony as "oh murder" and a cat were taken seriously to place the TOD at around 4. Would MJK not have been in full rigor at 2 p.m. had she been killed at 4 a.m.?

And may I guess that you find Chapman's accepted time of death annoying too?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

not sure imo, because Maurice Lewis didn't know Mary the victim, as it seems.
But more importantly, had she been drinking that morning, more people would have seen her, don't you think ?

Best wishes

The visit by Catherine Pickell is the only logical solution I can think of for a woman standing at, or leaving Kelly's door so early in the morning. Lewis might have seen her, yet he says this woman not only went out for milk but returned.

"...a tailor named Lewis says he saw Kelly come out about 8 o'clock, and go back..."

"...Morris Lewis, a tailor, states that he was playing "pitch and toss" in the court at nine o'clock this morning, and an hour before that he had seen the woman leave the house, and return with some milk."

"...Catherine Pickell, residing in Dorset-street, states that at about 7.30 on Friday morning she called at Kelly's house to borrow a shawl,..."

I'm not so hung up about any stated times, a half-hour either way, because no-one seemed to know what the time was anyway. None of these witnesses can be said to carry a watch.

"About 7:30", and "about 8:00", means pretty much the same time among people who are guessing because they have no watch. Unless they make reference to the church clock specifically I can't see a good reason to object here.

So when Maxwell..
"..gave positive information that she saw Mary Jane Kelly standing at the entrance to Miller's-court at half-past 8 on Friday morning."

we might wonder who they actually saw, Kelly leaving the Court or returning, or Pickell arriving or leaving?

I've looked for a Catherine Pickell in the 1891 census but not located her yet, not in the vicinity of Dorset St. I'd like to know how old she was 16 or 26?, is it remotely possible she could have been mistaken for Mary Kelly by Lewis who apparently did not know Kelly anyway. Or, by Maxwell from across the street, who apparently did know her.

Then there's the pub sighting to deal with, if we are not careful we end up with a whole list of 'special pleading', not good.
I'm not prepared to accept that these sightings were Kelly, but equally to argue it wasn't is almost as ridiculous, so this is one debate I choose to leave alone with respect to being committal one way or the other.

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Wickerman,
You just may have something here,..
Catherine Pickell/Pickert[,referred to] stated that she went to Kelly's room to borrow her shawl [ as it was raining] she claimed that she knocked the door , but as there was no answer, went on her way.
Mrs Maxwell claimed she saw the woman Kelly wearing a woollen crossover some 30 minutes later, that she had not seen Kelly wearing for some time .
Dead people are not seen , or spoken to, unless they are alive, or a witness has made a mistake.
Did Maxwell see Pickell]Pickert wearing Mary's, shawl? but according to Pickell, she could not obtain it.if she was lying,.... why?
If it was the same crossover, it found itself back in Mary's room by 1045am.
So did Kelly give lend her shawl, and it was returned shortly after 8am, suggesting Kelly was alive, but that being the case, why did not Pickell tell the truth?
Was she scared to say she saw Kelly alive, and well at 730am, or are we barking up the wrong tree???
Regards Richard,

[miss marple]

catherine pickett

There is a Catherine Pickett age 33 married to David,34 in the 1891 census, he is a bottle dealer.
They live at 24 Spring Gardens Whitechapel.

I believe this is the witness in question.

Miss Marple

[Wickerman]

Thankyou, so this Pickett might be our Pickell and 30 yrs old in 1888 whereas Kelly was about 25.
Was Pickett born in England?

Spring Gardens?, I'll take a look..
Thankyou, Jon S.

[miss marple]

Catherine was born in Spitalfields and David in Holborn so locals.

Miss Marple

[Wickerman]

Thankyou, yes I did look her up.

The reason I asked was because there is a slim chance Mrs Maxwell confused Pickell for Kelly, and if they both had Irish accents then that would help understand her confusion.
No such luck.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

There is a Catherine Pickett age 33 married to David,34 in the 1891 census, he is a bottle dealer.
They live at 24 Spring Gardens Whitechapel.

I believe this is the witness in question.

Miss Marple

I believe you are perfectly correct. I found a statement attributed to a Catharine Picket, flower seller, who lived in Millers Court, taken from, I think, The Daily Chronicle, 10 Nov. 1888.

In the article Catharine refers to "my old man, Dave" and that she heard Mary Kelly singing, "I plucked a violet, etc. " at 12:30 am, and later she said, " (I)...sees her from my own room across, through the broken window, a sight I shall carry to my grave".
The Ripper File, Jones & Lloyd, 1975, p.65.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

sight

Hello Jon. A sight? Meaning her last time seeing MJK? Surely not the mutilated remains?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Lynn, there was a time between the discovery of the murder and the police getting themselves organised in the Court.
Apparently, Picket's room overlooked the broken window of Kelly's room, perhaps Picket lived opposite in the rooms beside the water pump?
I'm sure several residents peeked through the broken window before enough police arrived to take control.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

ah!

Hello Jon. Thanks. Now I get it. I thought that it was just after she heard the Irish folk music.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

I believe you are perfectly correct. I found a statement attributed to a Catharine Picket, flower seller, who lived in Millers Court, taken from, I think, The Daily Chronicle, 10 Nov. 1888.

In the article Catharine refers to "my old man, Dave" and that she heard Mary Kelly singing, "I plucked a violet, etc. " at 12:30 am, and later she said, " (I)...sees her from my own room across, through the broken window, a sight I shall carry to my grave".
The Ripper File, Jones & Lloyd, 1975, p.65.

Regards, Jon S.

Would the coat over the window not have kept Picket from being able to see into the room from her own room across?

Does that statement make any sense?