Romford

[The Grave Maurice]

Don,

That is a very astute observation. When I was young and foolish, as opposed to what I am now (old and foolish), if I had a crush on a girl I used to walk by her house repeatedly, or stand outside as long as possible, in the hope that she would come out. You've provided me with a new way to explain Hutch's behaviour. Ta.

[The Good Michael]

Don,

That is a very astute observation. When I was young and foolish, as opposed to what I am now (old and foolish), if I had a crush on a girl I used to walk by her house repeatedly, or stand outside as long as possible, in the hope that she would come out. You've provided me with a new way to explain Hutch's behaviour. Ta.

Or he had a crush on Astrakhan Man, hence the vivid description.

Mike

[The Grave Maurice]

Clever, Mike.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

I'm afraid you perpetuate the fallacy that because we lack proof, we cannot arrive at reasonable conclusions based on the evidence we have at our disposal. If that's the line you take - "you don't know, therefore you cannot opine" - you are simply wasting your time here. A message board is not designed for simple regurgitation of facts and nothing more. We have to assess that which is probable and improbable based on the available evidence, and Hutchinson's claims fall firmly in the latter category, in my opinion. I'm not particularly trying to "sell" anything, but unless you can do better than reminding me of what we do and don't "know", I'm afraid the conclusion that Hutchinson probably - not definitely! - lied is sustained as a reasonable one at the very least.

And you're welcome to think that it is only my "assumption" that the Victoria Home was the place that Hutchinson usually slept, but I think you'll find that it is pretty well established. You'll also find that most people agree with me on that detail, regardless of their views of Hutchinson's credibility, or lack thereof.

[Phil Carter]

Phil

Sorry, there were too many long words in that post for my liking. To be honest, I don't even know the difference between "Logical positivism and positive logicalism."

I'm just a plain simple man who goes to see a doctor when he feels ill, rather than stopping a random person in the street for medical advice.

Hello Chris,

Yes, so am I, and so do I on medical advice... But in Ripperology there's a difference between the random commentator and any comment from one that bears a certain degree of knowledge...it should not be looked down upon from any self imposed perch on high, by anyone.

The absolute elite that encourage participation are indeed looked up to, but not those who stifle it and even belittle the bearers of such opinion.

It is late here. I have to get some shut eye.
Have a nice evening.

kindly

Phil

[Chris]

But in Ripperology there's a difference between the random commentator and any comment from one that bears a certain degree of knowledge...

Thank goodness we agree on that much at least.

[Ben]

If he had paid weekly in advance for a metal bed ticket (which were was issued each night – and we know that most inmates paid weekly) then he would also require a special late night pass in order to obtain access after 12.30 or 1.00 am.

No, no, no, no, bloody no, Lechmere.

Please let's not repeat this nonsense again. A weekly pass is precisely the same thing as a bed ticket, as is evident from the rules of the Victoria Home that we have discussed ad nauseam. If Hutchinson had paid for a weekly pass, he could have accessed a bed at the Victoria Home at any hour of the night. If he didn't have a pass, the cut-off point to obtain one was either 12:30am or 1.00am. If he had neither a pass nor money to pay for one upon arrival, his Romford footslog is rendered pointless and illogical, because there was no chance of him getting into the Victoria Home at all.

I meant what I said about the obvious inconsistency. First he tells us (or rather Kelly herself) that he has no money, but when speaking to the press, he divulges the detail that the place where he usually slept had closed. But why mention the closure of a home if he has no money to get in anyway? It's irrelevant. Why didn't he say, "I walked about all night because I had no money to get into where I usually sleep?".

I think I'll file this post away under "To be used again if ever challenged on this issue".

[jason_c]

Are you suggesting that those folks knew more about what people did daily and could do than we, 120 years later know? I mean just because they lived in those times and witnessed such things daily doesn't mean they knew anything.

Mike

Certainly not. Im of the opinion that modern day users of internet message forums will know far more about the lifestyle of the Victorian Urban poor than a contemporary police detectice of 20 years experience would.

Indeed right this minute im writing a letter to The Times Literary Supplement pointing out numerous factual errors in Charles Dickens' portrait of workhouse life in Oliver Twist.

[jason_c]

In terms of walking distances I do remember reading of football fans walking to away grounds during the Depression of the 1930's. Im doing my best to find an online reference to this. These would be similar miles to Hutchinsons Romford walk.

[Robert]

Well if you go back to the 18th century, Mr Earnshaw walks from Yorkshire to Liverpool and back in Wuthering Heights. I'm sure Emily Bronte wouldn't have put this in if it sounded an impossible feat. People used to do this - particularly Yorkshire folk who were tight wi't brass, tha knows.

[Ben]

When I was young and foolish, as opposed to what I am now (old and foolish), if I had a crush on a girl I used to walk by her house repeatedly, or stand outside as long as possible, in the hope that she would come out

Rather like Freddie from My Fair Lady, GM.

I have often walked down this street before,
But the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before
All at once am I
Several stories high,
Knowing I’m on the street where you live!

Is it half as foul in the heart of town?
Does the ripper prowl in any other part of town?
Does debasement pour
Out of every door?
No, it’s just on the street where you live!

And oh! The towering feeling,
Just to know, somehow you are here.
The overpowering feeling that when ol’ Blotchy’s gone you’ll suddenly appear.

Lewis stops and stares. She might bother me.
‘Cause the hangman’s rope is not somewhere I’d rather be.
Let the time go by
With…no…alibi!
Loiterin’ here on the street where you-oo-oo (and he really milks it here) oo-oo-ooo live!

[The Good Michael]

I was thinking... why would Hutchinson even say he had been down to Romford if it was an unusual thing to walk back from there? If he was trying to hide something, why would he pick Romford if it was was such an extraordinary feat to walk from there? And as others asked, why did no one find it an abnormal thing to do? Either it was a not uncommon thing for people to have done, or it was, but Hutchinson had a Romford connection that explained why he had been there that we don't know about. Either way, everyone was satisfied that he had been down to Romford. There was no doubt that his story was believed.

That doesn't make it true, but it is something that absolutely cannot have its credibility questioned. It just can't.

Mike

[Lechmere]

'Why didn't he say, "I walked about all night because I had no money to get into where I usually sleep?"'

Hmmm, Ben why or why?
I know! It’s because he had paid for a weekly ticket in advance but had neglected to get a special night pass – an item which anyone who reads the Victoria Home rules can tell at a simple glance is quite separate from a bed ticket. How can anyone tell this? Because it is listed as a separate item in those rules. Furthermore Hutchinson confirms it for us. That he wasn’t picked up on this by either the police (as far as we know) or the press (which we do know) is further confirmation. Case solved.

[Robert]

Tomorrow :
I could have walked all night
The lovesick swain stays mainly in the rain
I've thrown a cutlass at her face
I'm getting buried in the morning

[Lechmere]

With…no…alibi!
This line needs to be changed to
With a disposal alibi