The Pipe Man/ Israel Schwartz

[Jdombrowski89]

I know that there was an execellent thread on the previous forum which included a newspaper article involving Israel Schwartz and was wondering if there was any possible way of salvaging it or restarting a new thread on this? I can't seem to remember whether Dan or Tom Wescott originally posted the information.

Regards,
Justin

[sam]

I think that big shoulder man and pipe man were working together, I believe that pipeman was the one who done the cutting once the big guy had strangled the victim. I have always wondered how 1 man could carry out such a murder and not be spotted, well I believe there was a look out, also the murders are all near alleyways an ideal spot if youve got a lookout, pipeman was the lookout he was standing there smoking his pipe acting cool, could pipeman have been Joe Barnett? Think about it once they had been spotted by the witness theres not alot they could have done about it.

[Nothing to see]

I think that big shoulder man and pipe man were working together, I believe that pipeman was the one who done the cutting once the big guy had strangled the victim. I have always wondered how 1 man could carry out such a murder and not be spotted, well I believe there was a look out, also the murders are all near alleyways an ideal spot if youve got a lookout, pipeman was the lookout he was standing there smoking his pipe acting cool, could pipeman have been Joe Barnett? Think about it once they had been spotted by the witness theres not alot they could have done about it.

Huh? Who did the what to the who now? Too many conspiracy theories rolled into one.

[sam]

Nobody would make any money out of a simple solution.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Justin, I'm sorry that I'm just now seeing your post from February. Perhaps you could give me a few more details as to the article or thread in question and I'll see if I can help.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

I think that big shoulder man and pipe man were working together, I believe that pipeman was the one who done the cutting once the big guy had strangled the victim. I have always wondered how 1 man could carry out such a murder and not be spotted, well I believe there was a look out, also the murders are all near alleyways an ideal spot if youve got a lookout, pipeman was the lookout he was standing there smoking his pipe acting cool, could pipeman have been Joe Barnett? Think about it once they had been spotted by the witness theres not alot they could have done about it.

yes i've read similar too; it's about 4 years ago, in this theory Pipeman might have been R.D' Onston but i'm not going to comment on this

[kensei]

I just thought someone should chime in to argue for the standard, non-conspiracy theory, just for some balance. Schwartz came along and happened upon Jack the Ripper attacking Liz. As he was crossing the street to avoid the scene the Ripper noticed him, saw his obviously Jewish appearance and shouted "Lipski!" at him as a way of saying "Get the hell out of here," (Lipski having become a derogatory term for Jews). Pipeman was another innocent bystander who had just happened along, beginning to light his pipe at the same moment the attack began, and when he also started to walk away in the same direction as Schwartz, Schwartz thought he was chasing him so he ran.

I guess I'm a traditionalist in many ways, but this prosaic theory has always seemed the most likely to me. The principle of Occam's Razor states that in a general sense, the simplest solution is usually the correct one.

[DVV]

could pipeman have been Joe Barnett?

Hi Sam,
No, Pipeman couldn't be Barnett.
If Barnett was the killer, he must have been a lone killer, with a very personal motive.

Amitiés,
David

[Jdombrowski89]

Tom,

I remember it as a more recent thread from the Israel Schwartz thread in the old witnesses section of the Casebook forum right before it crashed last time around.

Basically after the initial "Lipski" Incident, to the best of my knowledge, someone standing outside followed someone in pursuit soon after, known as the pipe man. It may not be all correct as my memory on it is a bit hazy, but I know someone posted it with an interesting newspaper article that piqued my interest.

Kind Regards,
Justin

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Justin. Since it might be a few months before you read this and reply again (wink) I'll see if I can't answer your question. I believe the article you're referring to appeared in the Echo newspaper. The reporter attended a meeting of the Workingmen's club and spoke with William Wess who was clearly aware of the Schwartz incident. Either Wess told a jumbled account or the reporter recorded it jumbled, but it basically made Schwartz out to be the bad guy and Pipeman as the good guy. Wess knew the man's name, but claimed to have forgotten it, and said the man was not a member of the club. Of course, the police wanted to keep Schwartz's name hush, and although Schwartz probably was not a card carrying member of the club (most attendees and residents were not), he possbily lived there until the day of the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

From the Oct. 1st, 1888 edtion of The Echo:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.

Justin, I'm pretty sure this is the article you were referring to. Unfortunately, this is how it appears in the press release section. On the old thread, we were able to get a clean translation of it. But I hope you can get the jist from this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Roy Corduroy]

...the police wanted to keep Schwartz's name hush, and although Schwartz probably was not a card carrying member of the club (most attendees and residents were not), he possbily lived there until the day of the murder.

Hi Tom,

That's an interesting proposition. Did his wife possibly live at the club, too?

Roy

[Chris]

Justin, I'm pretty sure this is the article you were referring to. Unfortunately, this is how it appears in the press release section. On the old thread, we were able to get a clean translation of it. But I hope you can get the jist from this.

Chris Scott posted a report from the following day's Scotsman last year, which fills in the first gap at least:

The club itself, which is next door to the large gate, was yesterday closed; but all the forenoon members and others who have special business there were admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting yesterday morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. This fee, the secretary explained, was to assist the propaganda. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged, but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought 5s. would not be too much. In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=25802&postcount=1

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Chris.

This article implies that the man in question may have been known to the members, or was at least a stanger allowed into the yard, and that he was a non-member, non-members (presumably) being allowed to attend functions free of charge until this incident. This is extremely interesting. The idea of charging a fee sounds like an attempt to redirect blame, though it could be entirely innicent as well.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Origin of "interrupted killer"?

I'm intrigued by these early accounts, not least by the following:

"The secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock... he was seen... being chased by another man along Fairclough Street".

Could the incident whereby Schwartz, evidently mistaken as the murderer by some, was "chased" from the scene, lie at the root of the "interrupted killer" theory?