The Pipe Man/ Israel Schwartz

[Michael W Richards]

That's exactly what I think it is Joshua.

Interesting conclusion Jon, particularly since a time of around quarter to one is mentioned. Although Ive been suggesting an earlier discovery time for years here. A note.......it would appear that no-one saw Diemshutz and Kozebrodski, since Kozebrodski said within an hour of the murder that he was sent out alone by Louis. Funny that not one club witness mentions that there was actually 3 search parties, Issac, Morris and Louis,...nor did Diemshitz mention that he sent Issac out alone. And who exactly was this Issacs that went out with Louis...how come he wasn't interviewed.

[Wickerman]

Isn't it more likely that, rather than a garbled version of Schwartz's flight from Pipeman, this is a garbled account of the two men who were known to have run down Fairclough Street, ie Kozebrodsky and Diemshutz?

That's exactly what I think it is Joshua.

[Joshua Rogan]

Isn't it more likely that, rather than a garbled version of Schwartz's flight from Pipeman, this is a garbled account of the two men who were known to have run down Fairclough Street, ie Kozebrodsky and Diemshutz?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm intrigued by these early accounts, not least by the following:

"The secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock... he was seen... being chased by another man along Fairclough Street".

Could the incident whereby Schwartz, evidently mistaken as the murderer by some, was "chased" from the scene, lie at the root of the "interrupted killer" theory?

I find it interesting particularly in context with this Sam..."Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation."

I think the discovery was closer to 12:45 than it was 1am, and that might also explain why someone was seen chasing someone at round 12:45. I assume that the Echo is a paper published daily....therefore in this case prior to a story coming forward by one Israel Schwartz?

[RockySullivan]

"the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase"

Very interesting, Pipeman was known to the secretary of the club. Perhaps his name will turn up someday in some files that have been lost from the ripper casebook?

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Ros...

It occurred to me that there might be two independent sources corroborating the same event. That is, to say, we have two separate accounts of how Eliz Stride may have died in Saucy Jack and Israel Schwartz that could sync to each other. Schwartz' claims to have seen a woman evading her attacker and crying out for help. In his apology, Saucy Jack attributes "the interruption" to Eliz' "squeal"-ing.

-------
The "lipsill" came up because Eliz Stride is Swedish. There was a sense of familiarity with her date that nite, the sandy-coloured eyelashes, the distinctive voice that Packer notes. I had been reading Frances Cole & this custom of spending the night with a boyfriend and bar-hopping the next day, and was wondering if that was what Stride was doing. She hadn't purchased a bed that nite.

[Rosella]

Hi, Robert,
That would depend on whether you believe that the 'Saucy Jack' postcard was actually written by the Ripper though, wouldn't it? Also, for the word 'lipsill' or derivatives of it to mean anything to Pipe man, he would surely have to be Swedish, or at least Scandinavian, as would BS Man.

If you put that against the fact that Israel Lipski was a well known murderer of the time, who had lived in Batty St, had killed a fellow lodger only the year before and was hanged for it, it seems to me to be unnecessarily complicating the situation by bringing Swedish words into the scene. I just think the call of 'Lipski' to Pipe man referred to the murder of only a year before in a nearby locality. The murderer had been a migrant from a hated and despised minority, and his name had been used to taunt men of Jewish appearance, (Schwartz being one) ever since.

[Robert St Devil]

My apologies All, I could not find the "Lipski" thread, so I posted here. Case of Rusty St. Devil. Also, if this has been mentioned here before.

I used an online Swedish translator for the word "lipski". It returned the word "lipsill", which meant "crybaby". The derivative word was "lips", which meant "to cry". Would anyone know if something sounding close to "lips ki" might translate out to "she's crying", "crybaby", or "squealer"?

I am grasping at The Saucy Jack postcard. It seems to corroborate Schwartz' interview. He says that he saw a woman trying to cry out for help. Saucy Jack writes that the woman was a squealer. He attributes that to be the reason that he "couldn't finish straight off". Does he mention her squealing because he was busted by Schwartz?

[Jdombrowski89]

Tom,

I believe so. That does sound awfuly familiar to the thread I was talking about. Very interesting though. Thanks for going for the trouble to post it for me.

Regards,
Justin

[Sam Flynn]

Origin of "interrupted killer"?

I'm intrigued by these early accounts, not least by the following:

"The secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock... he was seen... being chased by another man along Fairclough Street".

Could the incident whereby Schwartz, evidently mistaken as the murderer by some, was "chased" from the scene, lie at the root of the "interrupted killer" theory?

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Chris.

This article implies that the man in question may have been known to the members, or was at least a stanger allowed into the yard, and that he was a non-member, non-members (presumably) being allowed to attend functions free of charge until this incident. This is extremely interesting. The idea of charging a fee sounds like an attempt to redirect blame, though it could be entirely innicent as well.

Cheers,

Mike

[Chris]

Justin, I'm pretty sure this is the article you were referring to. Unfortunately, this is how it appears in the press release section. On the old thread, we were able to get a clean translation of it. But I hope you can get the jist from this.

Chris Scott posted a report from the following day's Scotsman last year, which fills in the first gap at least:

The club itself, which is next door to the large gate, was yesterday closed; but all the forenoon members and others who have special business there were admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting yesterday morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. This fee, the secretary explained, was to assist the propaganda. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged, but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought 5s. would not be too much. In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had, no doubt, been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen - or, at least, a man whom some persons regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough Street which runs across Berner Street, close to the club, and which is interesected on the right by Providence Street, Brunswick Street, and Christian Street, and on the left by Batty Street and Grove Street, the two latter running up into Commercial Road. The pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...02&postcount=1

[Roy Corduroy]

...the police wanted to keep Schwartz's name hush, and although Schwartz probably was not a card carrying member of the club (most attendees and residents were not), he possbily lived there until the day of the murder.

Hi Tom,

That's an interesting proposition. Did his wife possibly live at the club, too?

Roy

[Tom_Wescott]

From the Oct. 1st, 1888 edtion of The Echo:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.

Justin, I'm pretty sure this is the article you were referring to. Unfortunately, this is how it appears in the press release section. On the old thread, we were able to get a clean translation of it. But I hope you can get the jist from this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Justin. Since it might be a few months before you read this and reply again (wink) I'll see if I can't answer your question. I believe the article you're referring to appeared in the Echo newspaper. The reporter attended a meeting of the Workingmen's club and spoke with William Wess who was clearly aware of the Schwartz incident. Either Wess told a jumbled account or the reporter recorded it jumbled, but it basically made Schwartz out to be the bad guy and Pipeman as the good guy. Wess knew the man's name, but claimed to have forgotten it, and said the man was not a member of the club. Of course, the police wanted to keep Schwartz's name hush, and although Schwartz probably was not a card carrying member of the club (most attendees and residents were not), he possbily lived there until the day of the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott