Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[packers stem]

Wickerman, you're probably right, but isn't it also true that the abject poor eat whatever is available, and don't conform to the niceties of a breakfast, lunch, and dinner menu? Cold pizza is the breakfast of champions in most trailer courts in the U.S. of A. And, anyway, didn't your lot eat kippers in the a.m. back in the day?

You have to place yourself then and not now .
These were starving people , eating one meal a day on a good day .... they got food , they ate it.
You can't compare to what we might do today

[packers stem]

People like Kelly pretty well lived from hand to mouth. So I wouldn't think it viable to suggest she bought the food earlier the night before, and kept half of it for breakfast. But then, who eats a meal soon after throwing up?
Typically, food is the last thing on your mind after a good heave-up - I recall my pub-crawl days when a lad.

I agree .... so where does that leave us now ?
And fish and chips would be vile cold ... 😀
I repeat .
Bonds report says fish and potatoes .
Kelly was alive and well
Now we agree that the food would not be a breakfast .
So ?

[DJA]

...... Maxwell had her days mixed up.

[packers stem]

...... Maxwell had her days mixed up.

Eeeerm ...... not in this version of reality she didn't 😀
We can either look for the truth , wherever it leads us or we can pick a suspect out of a hat and then hand pick our chosen facts to suit ..... as has been happening for most of the last 130 years .
Maxwell is the fly in the ointment , she's immovable and if we want to get anywhere we should be trying to get our heads around what the options are ...

[packers stem]

In fact to go further ....
Maxwell is the ONLY witness where the day was proven to be correct by enquiries at the milk shop , so she is the sole witness we can't throw that at 😁
Hutchinson , Sarah Lewis ,Cox ..... Schwartz and the rest from Berner Street , Long and Cadosche, they could ALL have got the wrong day ...... Maxwell couldn't 😉

[Wickerman]

I agree .... so where does that leave us now ?
And fish and chips would be vile cold ... 😀
I repeat .
Bonds report says fish and potatoes .
Kelly was alive and well
Now we agree that the food would not be a breakfast .
So ?

I'm not sure, there's an error somewhere.
Maxwell seeing another woman she thought was Kelly seems to be the path of least resistance.
Do you have a better solution?
And M.Lewis's story didn't take place in the Court, but at the Britannia. So Lewis did not see Kelly come & go from the court, as was first reported.

[GUT]

If MJK bought a halfpenny candle on the 7th, why didn’t McCarthy tackle her over the rent then and there.

[DJA]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

[rjpalmer]

You have to place yourself then and not now .
These were starving people , eating one meal a day on a good day .... they got food , they ate it. You can't compare to what we might do today

Precisely my point. If they had food they ate it. Including porridge for dinner and fish for breakfast.

"I am a domestic servant in a Christian Home," she said, "and can't I take my breakfast when I like?" (Laughter) The Magistrate: No, I don't think you can. The evening is not the time for breakfast. Applicant: Well, you see sir, it was like this. I had a pair of kippers for breakfast and not having time to eat them I save them for dinner." --a servant in Clerkenwell, 1896.

Glasgow, 2 September, 1887: "Three children belonging to one family at Crosshill, Glasgow, partook of bad fish for breakfast on Tuesday, and were afterwards seized with vomiting, induced by poisoning." Lanarkshire Upper Ward Examiner, 3 September, 1887.

"We soon find ourselves in one of the principal streets of this metropolis of "Bloaterdom," with a kipper for breakfast, and proceeded on to the sands of Yarmouth." 1 September, 1888. Banbury Beacon.

Inquest held at Stamford, 1 March, 1887: "They prepared their own meals with the exception of dinner, which was sent to them...On Saturday night deceased appeared to be in his usual state of health, and about eleven o'clock after the shop closed, he sent out to purchase some fish for breakfast next morning. Witness got back about twelve o'clock, but failed to gain admittance."

Unlikely Kelly had fish for breakfast, but not as wildly impossible as Ripperologists seem to believe.

[GUT]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

Certainly a possible explaination

[packers stem]

Precisely my point. If they had food they ate it. Including porridge for dinner and fish for breakfast.

"I am a domestic servant in a Christian Home," she said, "and can't I take my breakfast when I like?" (Laughter) The Magistrate: No, I don't think you can. The evening is not the time for breakfast. Applicant: Well, you see sir, it was like this. I had a pair of kippers for breakfast and not having time to eat them I save them for dinner." --a servant in Clerkenwell, 1896.

Glasgow, 2 September, 1887: "Three children belonging to one family at Crosshill, Glasgow, partook of bad fish for breakfast on Tuesday, and were afterwards seized with vomiting, induced by poisoning." Lanarkshire Upper Ward Examiner, 3 September, 1887.

"We soon find ourselves in one of the principal streets of this metropolis of "Bloaterdom," with a kipper for breakfast, and proceeded on to the sands of Yarmouth." 1 September, 1888. Banbury Beacon.

Inquest held at Stamford, 1 March, 1887: "They prepared their own meals with the exception of dinner, which was sent to them...On Saturday night deceased appeared to be in his usual state of health, and about eleven o'clock after the shop closed, he sent out to purchase some fish for breakfast next morning. Witness got back about twelve o'clock, but failed to gain admittance."

Unlikely Kelly had fish for breakfast, but not as wildly impossible as Ripperologists seem to believe.

They weren't eating kippers for breakfast in spitalfields...... with or without potatoes .
Bread and coffee if they were lucky

[packers stem]

I'm not sure, there's an error somewhere.
Maxwell seeing another woman she thought was Kelly seems to be the path of least resistance.
Do you have a better solution?
And M.Lewis's story didn't take place in the Court, but at the Britannia. So Lewis did not see Kelly come & go from the court, as was first reported.

Maxwell gavea press interview on the afternoon of the 9th saying she believed Kelly was "of Limerick" so that pretty much rules out wrong person too .
Doesn't matter much where Lewis saw her that day really , because we can assume he played pitch n toss in the court on a regular basis if it was a safe location , then its safe to assume that he'd recognise court residents who would come and go.
He saw her Thursday night with Dan and Julia.
Joe Barnett corroborated this when he said that her brother was due to meet her that night.
It follows that if Lewis was correct about his ID on Thursday night , he was also correct on Friday morning .
Yes there are other options to consider
One is obvious if you think of Julia and the Kennedy statement if true ....
The other I'm not going into right now but yep there are options

[packers stem]

Because she told him she was coming into some money on the 9th and would settle the full arrears then.

Or there was something considerably more to the relationship between them

[Wickerman]

Unlikely Kelly had fish for breakfast, but not as wildly impossible as Ripperologists seem to believe.

Hi RJ.
I did understand the point you were making previously, but my second point was that suggesting she ate a meal right after throwing up is questionable in my view.

[Bridewell]

Why is she the most reliable of witnesses? Her story isn't corroborated by anyone. Lawende's is by the two gentlemen he was with. Fanny Mortimer's is by Leon Goldstein etc Nobody saw Maxwell and Kelly talking. I know that doesn't mean she was lying but it isn't corroborated either.

Corroboration is useful but its absence shouldn't be taken as an indication that a witness is mendacious or mistaken. If I see someone drop dead in the street when there is no-one else around, does that mean the person didn't die? Clearly not. Lawende and his companions saw a woman whom he identified as Eddowes (if I remember rightly) from her clothing. I view him as reliable in terms of his integrity but the identification can't be seen as reliable because of the prevailing conditions and the brief nature of the sighting. Highly unlikely IMHO that Eddowes was still alive and well as late as 1.36am if she was alone, dead and mutilated 10 minutes or so later when her body was found.