Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[packers stem]

Thanks Jerry and Jon.

It's still really muddled isn't it? I've seen the reports that have Maurice Lewis giving a description different to that of other who gave one before. Like Nick, I used to be under the impression that when Lewis said he saw MJK with 'Dan' he meant Joseph's brother, and Barnett himself confirming MJK was with his brother the night before she died agreed with that (was that in the Star?) but, Lewis actually thinks Dan was Joseph Barnett, not his brother, so that doesn't explain the mix up at all?

Pitch and toss was an illegal gambling game and accounts often mention that those who played it used look outs. Maybe Lewis and his mates didn't need a look out as it's often reported police didn't venture down Dorset Street and it's courts very often. maybe Lewis was the look out and that's why he noticed the comings and goings.

Debs I suspect the best guess is that the two brothers looked similar but as he knew that Kelly lived with one of them until recently , in terms of him recognising Kelly ,it doesn't effect much .

A second point of note is that Maurice Lewis description of Kelly identical to the description that Maxwell gave of her .... short , stout and dark other than Maxwell elaborated by giving her age as well of around 23

[packers stem]

Hi
McCarthy was a well respected person in that area, and I would suggest would never openly allow prostitution in his rents, he would turn a blind eye to a degree, but never to fall foul of the law,
As to allowing the game of Pitch and Toss in Millers court, I would say not in a million years.
Regards Richard.

I can't see the reasoning there at all Richard tbh
This seems rather a 'rose tinted spectacle' view of McCarthy .
We really don't know what ha would or wouldn't have turned a blind eye to .
I really can't imagine him caring .It wasn't his job to police the court , just take the rent

[richardnunweek]

Hi
McCarthy was a well respected person in that area, and I would suggest would never openly allow prostitution in his rents, he would turn a blind eye to a degree, but never to fall foul of the law,
As to allowing the game of Pitch and Toss in Millers court, I would say not in a million years.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Thanks Jerry and Jon.

It's still really muddled isn't it? I've seen the reports that have Maurice Lewis giving a description different to that of other who gave one before. Like Nick, I used to be under the impression that when Lewis said he saw MJK with 'Dan' he meant Joseph's brother, and Barnett himself confirming MJK was with his brother the night before she died agreed with that (was that in the Star?) but, Lewis actually thinks Dan was Joseph Barnett, not his brother, so that doesn't explain the mix up at all?

Pitch and toss was an illegal gambling game and accounts often mention that those who played it used look outs. Maybe Lewis and his mates didn't need a look out as it's often reported police didn't venture down Dorset Street and it's courts very often. maybe Lewis was the look out and that's why he noticed the comings and goings.

[jerryd]

I think those questions go unknown at this point Debs.
The Lloyds Weekely of 11 Nov. pg 7 (which I'm sure you've read), offers the best summary.
Lewis was with others but they are not named.

Wick and Debs,


From the account in the Illustrated Police News, Lewis may have described the wrong girl altogether. Plus he states he knew her back as far as 1883. If Barnetts account of her life is even somewhat true, Mary was not in London at that time. Other news accounts state he was in the court playing pitch and toss and just after nine. Several scavengers (street cleaners) were in the court around that time (9:00 a.m.). Strange how no one ever sees each other?

Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, betwen ten and eleven, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after ten o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-cour, when he heard a lad call out "Copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset- street, known as Ringer's. He was positive than on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock.

[DJA]

This is going back a bit but why was Morris Lewis playing pitch and toss in Miller's Court in the early morning of 10th November? Is it because it was the Lord Mayors Parade and he had been given the day off tailoring for a living?
And as it's not a solitary vice..who was playing with him?

Prolly practicing for The Lord Mayor's Pitch and Toss Championship that afternoon.

[Wickerman]

This is going back a bit but why was Morris Lewis playing pitch and toss in Miller's Court in the early morning of 10th November? Is it because it was the Lord Mayors Parade and he had been given the day off tailoring for a living?
And as it's not a solitary vice..who was playing with him?

I think those questions go unknown at this point Debs.
The Lloyds Weekely of 11 Nov. pg 7 (which I'm sure you've read), offers the best summary.
Lewis was with others but they are not named.

[Abby Normal]

That would probably be from Lewis' inquest deposition - "the sound seemed to come from the direction of deceaseds room". Her police statement only says it "seemed to be not far away".

Praters statement says "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court". Her deposition says "the noise seemed to come from close by - it is nothing uncommon to hear cries of murder so I took no notice"

Thnks jr that was it

[Debra A]

This is going back a bit but why was Morris Lewis playing pitch and toss in Miller's Court in the early morning of 10th November? Is it because it was the Lord Mayors Parade and he had been given the day off tailoring for a living?
And as it's not a solitary vice..who was playing with him?

[packers stem]

Indeed, Jon. The "back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Miller's Court" she refers to must mean the lodging-house in which she herself lived - i.e. 26 Dorset St.

Prater testimony

Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below.

[Sam Flynn]

Given Prater occupied the front room (No.20) overlooking Dorset St. her guess that the scream came from the court must mean it seemed to come from behind her room.

Indeed, Jon. The "back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Miller's Court" she refers to must mean the lodging-house in which she herself lived - i.e. 26 Dorset St.

[packers stem]

Sarah Lewis
From the Telegraph of the 13th inquest transcript
What woke you up ? - I could not sleep. I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.
Were you afraid ? Did you wake anybody up ? - No, I took no notice, as I only heard the one scream

The shout came from the court and seemingly from outside keylers door

[packers stem]

Right, so Jack killed Mary at say between nine and ten in the morning. The cry of Murder at around 4 in the morning, right smack in between the two Doctor's death estimates was entirely coincidental even though Sarah Lewis thought it came from the direction of Mary's room, and Elizabeth Prater thought it was somewhere in the court also. After all the cry was common though. Elizabeth Prater said, in most accounts, the cry was common from the street, not the court.
When Catherine Pickett went banging on Mary's door at 7 30 in the morning, she wasn't dead, just asleep or out and about, even though nobody saw her out and about at that time and if the knocking did wake Mary up, she then got dressed, went out and got herself some ale, drunk it, threw it up, ate some fish and potatoes, possibly had to cook the meal all in an hour with the horrors of drink on her. Whilst nobody saw her going out, probably buying the ale and throwing it back up. Speaking of nobody seeing her, nobody saw her bring a client back between nine and ten, or probably solicit him for that matter [ apart from possibly Mrs Maxwell, plaid coat man] on Dorset st at the closest, maybe even on Commercial rd even though it was probably busy around that time, including her landlord or his assistant who probably would have asked her for his weekly rent [ note weekly IE probably paid on the same day each week Friday, not Thursday night]. Nobody saw Mary from the court put her hand through the broken window either, though said window leads directly on to the court. And the killer was really in luck because nobody saw him leave Mary's room half an hour later in broad daylight. Lucky for him he changed his MO from being a night stalker killing undercover of darkness, where he could more likely, [and did] slip away during the night.
Speaking of darkness Abberlines perfectly plausible explanation of the remains of the ladies clothing in the grate being burnt to give the killer light must be wrong, after all, he really wouldn't need that light at ten in the morning. so why Mary burnt some clothing, [possibly Maria Harvey's] is anyone's guess.
As is why Mrs Maxwell was interviewed on the ninth, and yet because her testimony disagreed wholly with what the police thought, why the Police, who would surely have asked around didn't find anybody else to testify on the twelve to back the timing of her death [mid morning], three days later even though say, Maria Harvey, testified without really adding anything to when Mary was killed. Strange that.
Oh, and I almost forgot Maurice Lewis who saw Mary even later and in a pub drinking with people at that. The killer must have worked at the speed of light to get mary back to her room unseen and then cut her up and leave all within forty-five mins
Ps Apologies if I am wrong but I cannot find anywhere were Mary told Caroline that she was from Limerick. Only - I believe she was from Limerick, or I heard etc
PPS None of the above is beyond conjecture but, [to my mind] when you take it as a whole, it is difficult for me to believe that Mary was' killed mid-morning.

Need to think outside the box a bit .
If the cry of "oh murder" was a cry of discovery , and the idea that anyone would shout that being confronted with JTR sitting on the bed is ridiculous so discovery is the most likely answer ....
And Maxwell and Lewis were correct then what conclusion would you draw from that ?

[Wickerman]

Praters statement says "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court". Her deposition says "the noise seemed to come from close by - it is nothing uncommon to hear cries of murder so I took no notice"

Given Prater occupied the front room (No.20) overlooking Dorset St. her guess that the scream came from the court must mean it seemed to come from behind her room.
Apparently there was a couple living directly upstairs above Kelly who slept through it all.

[Wickerman]

Do you know the source of the milk shop corroboration for Maxwell's story?

Hi Joshua.
It was reported in the Times, 12 Nov.
"On inquiries been made at the milk shop...."

I would imagine both police & press would have turned up there making inquries.