Caroline Maxwell Alibi ?

[Wickerman]

Indeed, Jon! I copped a fair bit of criticism for raising the matter back in the day - polite criticism, I hasten to add

Yeh, you & me both.
I havn't seen Michael Richards around in a while, I know he believed Prater lived over Kelly's room.

[Sam Flynn]

And just to batten down the hatches on that issue... it has been controversial.

Indeed, Jon! I copped a fair bit of criticism for raising the matter back in the day - polite criticism, I hasten to add

[Wickerman]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I thought this diagram of the layout of Miller's court might be useful in the terms of were the cry of " Oh Murder" might have originated.

There was also an Elizabeth Smith and Annie Govan, who lived in the court.

[Wickerman]

Thanks, Darryl. If it helps, I'd advise that people use the left arrow to locate Prater. Source: Daily Telegraph, which unambiguously has her saying that her room was at the "front" and "above the shed", ie the storage space shown in the diagram.

And just to batten down the hatches on that issue (it has been controversial).

There was an unidentified couple living above Kelly, not Prater.

"The walls are of thin match lining, which makes this circumstance the more unaccountable, and the couple in the room overhead had slept soundly without being awakened by scuffling in the room beneath them."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov. 1888.

[Joshua Rogan]

"Opposite the house in which the murder was committed stands the Commercial-street Chambers for men - a big substantial building, which should accommodate many men of a night. The other side of the Chambers is a warehouse of Messrs. Bayne and Wright, milk contractors."

Why did Mrs Maxwell go all the way to Bishopsgate to buy milk, when there was plenty next door?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Cheers, Sam thanks for clearing that up.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Darryl. If it helps, I'd advise that people use the left arrow to locate Prater. Source: Daily Telegraph, which unambiguously has her saying that her room was at the "front" and "above the shed", ie the storage space shown in the diagram.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I thought this diagram of the layout of Miller's court might be useful in the terms of were the cry of " Oh Murder" might have originated.

[packers stem]

I don't think it's probable that Maxwell confused Prater with Mary, but I think it's possible Lewis did. But there is something about her evidence that smacks of filling in the blanks after the fact, to me.
Believing Mary was from Limerick is irrelevant, it's doubtful that she would have had an Irish accent, growing up in Wales as she did.
And believing the man she lived with was called Joe Barnett isn't the same as knowing him before the murder (although she does say just that according to her inquest deposition).

Her police statement also contradicts the part you posted about her not knowing they had split up, and itself;

"since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate. I was on speaking terms with her although I had not seen her for 3 weeks until Friday morning"

So, apparently, she *did* know they had split up, although last time they spoke this hadn't yet happened.

Her police statement in no way contradicts .
At the time of writing the statement she knows they were separated ,presumably as it's been mentioned , but she'd only found that out at some point earlier that day .
Anything to do with Wales is presumptive and should be viewed with extreme caution and certainly isn't evidence of anything and even if true you wouldn't know at what age she left Ireland.
Kelly , it seems , was always singing Irish songs .
I've come across traveller families in both England and Wales over the years and the accents stick ,that's for sure .
Maurice Lewis played pitch n toss IN THE COURT ....Maxwell did not live in the court , so he would be well used to seeing Kelly coming and going from her room IN the court .
I doubt Maxwell was sat with Dan and Julia 😊
No doubt in my mind at all he knew full well who Kelly was .... the mere mention of Dan should be evidence enough

[Joshua Rogan]

So clearly Maxwell was talking about Barnett .
There is no sense in trying to push an idea that she mixed up Prater with Kelly .
Prater and Maxwell would have been sat together waiting to give testimony .
There's no evidence that Prater was called Mary Jane ....
Prater was not from limerick

I don't think it's probable that Maxwell confused Prater with Mary, but I think it's possible Lewis did. But there is something about her evidence that smacks of filling in the blanks after the fact, to me.
Believing Mary was from Limerick is irrelevant, it's doubtful that she would have had an Irish accent, growing up in Wales as she did.
And believing the man she lived with was called Joe Barnett isn't the same as knowing him before the murder (although she does say just that according to her inquest deposition).

Her police statement also contradicts the part you posted about her not knowing they had split up, and itself;

"since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate. I was on speaking terms with her although I had not seen her for 3 weeks until Friday morning"

So, apparently, she *did* know they had split up, although last time they spoke this hadn't yet happened.

[packers stem]

Mrs Prater Inquest testimony;
"I was waiting for a man I lived with, hr did not come".

So clearly Maxwell was talking about Barnett .
There is no sense in trying to push an idea that she mixed up Prater with Kelly .
Prater and Maxwell would have been sat together waiting to give testimony .
There's no evidence that Prater was called Mary Jane ....
Prater was not from limerick

[Joshua Rogan]

Bit more from Maxwell , same newspaper
" I didn't know then that she had separated from the man she had been living with, and I thought he had been "paying" her. I then went out in the direction of Bishopsgate to do some errands, and on my return I saw Kelly standing outside the public house, talking to a man. That was the last I saw of her.

Mrs Prater Inquest testimony;
"I was waiting for a man I lived with, hr did not come".

[Joshua Rogan]

Didn't McCarthy have a brush with the Law in connection with illegal prize-fighting?

I think you're right, 1882 rings a bell (if you'll excuse the boxing pun). Wasn't he arrested but released as his good character was vouched for by a policeman - I'm thinking Thicke, but can't remember for sure.

[Sam Flynn]

Didn't McCarthy have a brush with the Law in connection with illegal prize-fighting?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I agree, to actually admit playing a illegal game, it has the hallmarks of truth.
It still surprises me that McCarthy would allow any open illegal practise on his premises.
He appears to have been not a guy who stood any nonsense .
As for comings and goings ,, yes life was so different then, and men would go in and out the court, but that does not imply open prostitution.
McCarthy seemed to be the kind of person that kept in with the police and I am sure would not allow men waiting in line for servicing , with pimps in attendance..
Regards Richard.