Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[Jon Guy]

hi Harry
no I see what your saying-just too much of a coincidence to me.

Hi Abby

Harry may have a point about her clothes being in disarray due to the nature of the attack, as Tabram`s skirt is not described by witnesses as raised or lifted (please correct me if I`m wrong). Yes, they say she looked liked she`d being outraged or something, but not raised.

I don`t agree with Tabram been asleep or passed out on the stairs. Her regular lodging in George Street was about 100 yards from George Yard.

[Sam Flynn]

"The woman was a perfect stranger to witness. Her clothes were all disarranged, as if she had had a struggle with someone" (John Saunders Reeves)

"Her clothes were thrown upwards from the skirt of the dress." (PC Barrett)

In connection with the latter, it should be noted that Tabram was wearing a skirt AND a petticoat, but Barrett only mentioned her skirt having been thrown up.

[Fisherman]

"The clothes were turned up as far as the centre of the body, leaving the lower part of the body exposed; the legs were open, and altogether her position was such as to at once suggest in my mind that recent intimacy had taken place."

East London Observer, Aug 11.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Gareth and Christer

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Harry may have a point about her clothes being in disarray due to the nature of the attack, as Tabram`s skirt is not described by witnesses as raised or lifted (please correct me if I`m wrong). Yes, they say she looked liked she`d being outraged or something, but not raised.

I don`t agree with Tabram been asleep or passed out on the stairs. Her regular lodging in George Street was about 100 yards from George Yard.

Hi Jon
As others have shown her skirt was raised, just like the others and it’s also the clincher for me to include McKenzie.

Re sleeping- it doesn’t really matter if her regular crash pad was nearby, if your hammered and tired and or without money. Plus witnesses said people crashed their. But I think she was more than likely awake when attacked, the asleep thing is just a thought.

[Sam Flynn]

But I think she was more than likely awake when attacked

Very much awake, if the impression of recent intimacy by (I think) PC Barrett is anything to go by.

[Abby Normal]

Very much awake, if the impression of recent intimacy by (I think) PC Barrett is anything to go by.

I think that has more to do with the apparent sexual looking positioning of the body with the legs being spread and the skirt hiked up than with the thought that they were scrumping.

Unless of course you think they were having sex lying on the ground when she was killed.

[etenguy]

than with the thought that they were scrumping.

I'd never seen this word in this context - it seems my childhood was far less innocent than I'd thought.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd never seen this word in this context - it seems my childhood was far less innocent than I'd thought.

Indeed. I think I'll have to read Cider With Rosie again...

[Sam Flynn]

Unless of course you think they were having sex lying on the ground when she was killed.

Getting ready for it, perhaps. Of course, lying down, spreading her legs and lifting her skirts is something one might expect a prostitute to do.

[Abby Normal]

Getting ready for it, perhaps. Of course, lying down, spreading her legs and lifting her skirts is something one might expect a prostitute to do.

Or more likely standing up against a wall and hiking their skirt up, which was the usual way they went about it back then as everybody knows.

[Abby Normal]

I'd never seen this word in this context - it seems my childhood was far less innocent than I'd thought.

We had a lot of silly words we used for things when I was growing up.

[Bridewell]

I would think its a given someone bought Kate drinks, and she is in jail long before any street walkers started their businesses up for the night. Why would someone buy her drinks if not... a) at the very least an acquaintance, or b) he is trying to get her drunk for some reason. My bet would be that he was trying to find out how much she knew, in relation to her claim to her ex landlady about giving the Police a name she believed was the killer at large.

If what you're suggesting is that the person who bought the drinks may have gone on to kill her, I've followed a similar line of thought. The difficulty I encountered with it is:

if the name was his why would she not be giving him a wide berth rather than accepting drinks from him?

conversely, if the name was not his why would he feel the need to wait around and kill her?

[Michael W Richards]

If what you're suggesting is that the person who bought the drinks may have gone on to kill her, I've followed a similar line of thought. The difficulty I encountered with it is:

if the name was his why would she not be giving him a wide berth rather than accepting drinks from him?

conversely, if the name was not his why would he feel the need to wait around and kill her?

Maybe my line of thinking might resonate with you on that point as well...lets say Kate makes it known that she intends to go to the police with a name, and Friday night meets some men who suggest that she might do better financially if she were to deal with that person rather than the police. She agrees to meet them the next day to talk about it, and they ply her with booze to see what she really knows...how deep does her information go. Maybe because the man she suspects is involved with these same men and in other unlawful acts, and that means lots of other names and contacts. She tells them what she knows, they determine she is a threat...and they ask her to meet with one of them at a chosen point later that night. Somewhere where street traffic is virtually nil, and the surrounding buildings don't hold dozens of people who could be potential eye witnesses. Due to her arrest she arrives late, and with relief places her hand on the chest of the man waiting for her...one of the ones that bought her drinks...telling him she was so glad he waited.

For that to work the man waiting for her would have to have known she was in the City Jail, because a more logical time to meet would have been midnight, not 1:30am. Considering this murder has by far the most police within a close proximity to the crime as it occurs, one wonders about a police tip off. And maybe a cordon off of the area.

What if the man she was going to name was a cop, and the men she meets with are cops too. Plainclothed. Maybe in the espionage racket.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps Jack penetrated the sternum with such force that the blade stuck. he would have been working in virtual darkness and maybe he meant to slice the abdomen open, from top to bottom instead. He might then have either panicked, thinking she might be still alive, maybe he heard a gurgling noise, and stabbed her in a repeated frenzy with his pen knife before releasing the stronger blade. Or just stabbed Martha repeatedly through sheer frustration, before calming down and managing to release the other blade.
This could explain a couple of things with Polly Nichols. The fact that the wounds to her abdomen are low down and seem to be running vertically IE completely missing the chest bone. Secondly the throat being cut for the first time IE instead of just manually strangling Martha, [ yes i believe that's how Jack subdued his victims ], he cut her throat as well, to make sure she was dead.