Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[Harry D]

Hi again Harry.

why? why would someone stabbed to death or slashed to death be found with their skirt raised that high? "dishevelment" ?

unless they were killed while standing on their heads of course ; )

Is there any reason why a prostitute who was violently attacked wouldn't have her skirt raised, Abby?

[etenguy]

Abby

Would you still consider Tabram a Ripper victim if she had been killed after Annie Chapman ?

Just wondering

That is a good question. For me, it would depend on what happened next. If Catherine Eddowes murder didn't change in terms of how it was carried out, then Tabram's murder would interupt the progression of how the murderer developed and therefore it would cast serious doubt on Tabram being part of the same muderer's canon. Just as if Polly Nichol's murder took place between Eddowes and Kelly's murders - we would have serious doubts it was the same killer.

[Abby Normal]

Is there any reason why a prostitute who was violently attacked wouldn't have her skirt raised, Abby?

well they weren't raped and as far as they could tell no sex took place. there wasn't even overt evidence that a struggle took place.they were post mortem mutilated while lying down and the skirt was raised to gain unencumbered access to the abdomen and private parts.

and its pretty much well known that when engaging in the sex act it was done standing up. so no reason to leave a victim with the skirt raised up to expose the abdomen unless it was because the killer wanted to deliberately do it.

[Jon Guy]

hi Jon
that's a great question. probably not as much as his mature MO/sig had been established by then. but if she still had the raised skirt and all else was the same I would probably still be above 505/50 that she was.

Thanks Abby,

Personally, I`d say think the whole argument as to whether she was or not lies in the fact that Tabram was killed first.

[Jon Guy]

That is a good question. For me, it would depend on what happened next. If Catherine Eddowes murder didn't change in terms of how it was carried out, then Tabram's murder would interupt the progression of how the murderer developed and therefore it would cast serious doubt on Tabram being part of the same muderer's canon. Just as if Polly Nichol's murder took place between Eddowes and Kelly's murders - we would have serious doubts it was the same killer.

Agreed, Etenguy !!

But I wouldn`t have any doubts about Polly`s murderer if she had been killed between Eddowes and Kelly.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby,

Personally, I`d say think the whole argument as to whether she was or not lies in the fact that Tabram was killed first.

yup-absolutely. and that she was found with her skirt raised up above her waist.

[Jon Guy]

yup-absolutely. and that she was found with her skirt raised up above her waist.

What are your thoughts on Liz Stride murderer.
The Ripper ?

[Abby Normal]

What are your thoughts on Liz Stride murderer.
The Ripper ?

yup-peaked cap man

[Jon Guy]

yup-peaked cap man

Is peaked cap man also BS Man ?
Is peaked cap man also Church Passage Man ?

[Abby Normal]

Is peaked cap man also BS Man ?
Is peaked cap man also Church Passage Man ?

yup. and hes also marshalls man and possibly PC smith man and probably anon church st man.

[Michael W Richards]

That is a good question. For me, it would depend on what happened next. If Catherine Eddowes murder didn't change in terms of how it was carried out, then Tabram's murder would interupt the progression of how the murderer developed and therefore it would cast serious doubt on Tabram being part of the same muderer's canon. Just as if Polly Nichol's murder took place between Eddowes and Kelly's murders - we would have serious doubts it was the same killer.

If I read that right, you think a lack of sophistication or skill sets would likely discount Martha if she had been killed after Annie, yet you discount the measurable drop in skill sets from Annie to Kate as being relevant to a "Canon" designation.

If Pollys murder took place between Kates and Marys, it might have delineated the line between the "series" a little more obviously, since Marys murder cannot be considered anything but a departure from the killers' behaviors seen in Polly, Annie and Kates murder.

I think the striking similarities between the method of acquisition, the initial attack pattern , and the abdominal focus once the victim lost consciousness with Polly and Annie must lead to a conclusion that they were almost certainly killed by the same lone man. Some of these elements are present in Kates case also, but in Liz and Mary we have dramatic departures from the preexisting cases.

And none of these murders were done by someone who stabbed victims with penknives.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've finally made time to read Trow's book on the Torso murders, and in a chapter describing Jack's victims he says the following;

"I personally believe that Jack killed seven times, although his first attack, on Martha Tabram, may have been carried out on a woman already dead."


I haven't read any further as yet, but is Trow suggesting that Jack came across an already murdered Tabram and decided to add a bit of his own work?

If nothing else, it would explain the apparent use of two different weapons.

[Abby Normal]

I've finally made time to read Trow's book on the Torso murders, and in a chapter describing Jack's victims he says the following;

"I personally believe that Jack killed seven times, although his first attack, on Martha Tabram, may have been carried out on a woman already dead."


I haven't read any further as yet, but is Trow suggesting that Jack came across an already murdered Tabram and decided to add a bit of his own work?

If nothing else, it would explain the apparent use of two different weapons.

possible but highly doubtful. if anything he came upon an already passed out tabram and attacked her.

[Harry D]

well they weren't raped and as far as they could tell no sex took place. there wasn't even overt evidence that a struggle took place.they were post mortem mutilated while lying down and the skirt was raised to gain unencumbered access to the abdomen and private parts.

and its pretty much well known that when engaging in the sex act it was done standing up. so no reason to leave a victim with the skirt raised up to expose the abdomen unless it was because the killer wanted to deliberately do it.

If she's slumped on the floor and her body has been frenziedly stabbed, her clothes are bound to be in disarray. And in the "canonical" cases the skirts would've been raised to mutilate the body. Might be a signature trait, I don't rule it out, but you could be reading too much into it.

[Abby Normal]

If she's slumped on the floor and her body has been frenziedly stabbed, her clothes are bound to be in disarray. And in the "canonical" cases the skirts would've been raised to mutilate the body. Might be a signature trait, I don't rule it out, but you could be reading too much into it.

hi Harry
no I see what your saying-just too much of a coincidence to me.