Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[Sam Flynn]

Nothing I said contradicted what I originally said, nor, actually, your response to it, Abby. Tabram was drinking with her killer (in this scenario), in the immediate company of TWO other people, one of whom was her friend; that's what I meant by "open courtship", not just that they were in a public house. This "foursome" setup did not apply in the case of Stride and, as far as we know, Kelly.

[Abby Normal]

Nothing I said contradicted what I originally said, nor, actually, your response to it, Abby. Tabram was drinking with her killer (in this scenario), in the immediate company of TWO other people, one of whom was her friend; that's what I meant by "open courtship", not just that they were in a public house. This "foursome" setup did not apply in the case of Stride and, as far as we know, Kelly.

who cares if it was a foursome, a two some or a friggen ten some!

you said

open courtship of a victim

I responded by showing later examples of this. and then you resort to the "foursome" nonsense.

your changing the goal posts. your wrong. admit it for once.

[Sam Flynn]

I am NOT changing the goalposts. I'm explaining what I meant and adding some additional detail for the purposes of clarification. In short, there were two levels of "open courtship" going on in Tabram's case. What I said is true, and what you said was also true.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree, AN

.. and someone may have been buying Eddowes drinks that Sat afternoon.
Nichols seemed to know where she could get her lodging money and McKenzie was in a rush somewhere when she was last seen alive

The value of the peaked cap man in the Stride case is wholly reliant on the believability of the witness account, something that apparently wasn't valuable enough to warrant as much as a margin note at the Inquest. I would think its a given someone bought Kate drinks, and she is in jail long before any street walkers started their businesses up for the night. Why would someone buy her drinks if not... a) at the very least an acquaintance, or b) he is trying to get her drunk for some reason. My bet would be that he was trying to find out how much she knew, in relation to her claim to her ex landlady about giving the Police a name she believed was the killer at large. Polly seemed to believe her doss would come from soliciting, since she had made and spent her bed money a few times already.

I agree with whats been put forward about the probability that if there were 2 soldiers it wasnt the ones that Pearly saw with Polly much earlier that eve.

[Abby Normal]

I am NOT changing the goalposts. I'm explaining what I meant and adding some additional detail for the purposes of clarification. In short, there were two levels of "open courtship" going on in Tabram's case. What I said is true, and what you said was also true.

yes. OK then I can agree with that. Thanks.


none the less, with the examples I provided its still an example of "open courtship" and while I would agree with you that the foursome scenario is definitely a "level" up than the examples I said, IMHO I don't see it as being so drastic a change as what he may have been doing with Stride and Kelly. certainly not so much as to rule him out as being the ripper.

maybe, as most serial killers do, as they progress they change their MO slightly-so maybe he realized that that "level" of socializing was too dangerous.

especially if, as the tabram/soldier/poll/ line up etc. might have gotten a little too close to him.

[Jon Guy]

I would think its a given someone bought Kate drinks, and she is in jail long before any street walkers started their businesses up for the night. .

They didn`t just operate at night, Michael
Look at Annie Farmer and the time she picked her man up and went back to George St.

Why would someone buy her drinks if not... a) at the very least an acquaintance, or b) he is trying to get her drunk for some reason. My bet would be that he was trying to find out how much she knew, in relation to her claim to her ex landlady about giving the Police a name she believed was the killer at large. .

You are kidding, Mike?

Polly seemed to believe her doss would come from soliciting, since she had made and spent her bed money a few times already. .

She didn`t say that, though, did she ?

[Joshua Rogan]

Just reading about another 1888 murder (the killing of Percy Serle in Havant), which was committed with a clasp knife having two blades - could this be a simple solution for the two sizes of wounds to Tabram?

[Sam Flynn]

Just reading about another 1888 murder (the killing of Percy Serle in Havant), which was committed with a clasp knife having two blades - could this be a simple solution for the two sizes of wounds to Tabram?

Perhaps the Swiss Army was in town

Seriously, though, that's a good suggestion, Josh.

[Abby Normal]

Just reading about another 1888 murder (the killing of Percy Serle in Havant), which was committed with a clasp knife having two blades - could this be a simple solution for the two sizes of wounds to Tabram?

I just had a vision of the killer with a giant swiss army knife

[Wickerman]

Just reading about another 1888 murder (the killing of Percy Serle in Havant), which was committed with a clasp knife having two blades - could this be a simple solution for the two sizes of wounds to Tabram?

Wouldn't Kelleen have known that though?
Clasp-knife/pen-knife wounds were probably not rare in those days.

A dagger blade was something like twice the width of a penknife.

[Joshua Rogan]

Wouldn't Kelleen have known that though?
Clasp-knife/pen-knife wounds were probably not rare in those days.

A dagger blade was something like twice the width of a penknife.

Well, usually the blades on a clasp knife would be different sizes, a small pen blade and a larger pointed blade. And in Bond's profile he suggests Jack used "a strong knife at least six inches long, very sharp, pointed at the top about an inch in width. It may have been a clasp knife, a butcher's knife or a surgeon's knife."
Which sounds like it could have been sturdy enough to deal Tabram a blow to the heart.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

They didn`t just operate at night, Michael
Look at Annie Farmer and the time she picked her man up and went back to George St.

She is either drinking that afternoon or working that afternoon, and the state she is in when picked up suggests the former.


You are kidding, Mike?

Not saying its THE answer, just that based on that story she might well have been trying to extort some money from the party she intended to finger first. The reward money might have paled in comparison with a blackmail settlement.

She didn`t say that, though, did she ?

She said she had earned and spent her doss a few times over, and she had no other occupation that she plied after midnight that I'm aware of. It within the known and accepted data that Polly, and Annie, spoke to witnesses whose statements indicate both women were actively soliciting on the nights they were killed. There is no such evidence, unless Hutchinson clears things up for you, that any other Canonical was actively doing the same.

[Michael W Richards]

Well, usually the blades on a clasp knife would be different sizes, a small pen blade and a larger pointed blade. And in Bond's profile he suggests Jack used "a strong knife at least six inches long, very sharp, pointed at the top about an inch in width. It may have been a clasp knife, a butcher's knife or a surgeon's knife."
Which sounds like it could have been sturdy enough to deal Tabram a blow to the heart.

I have a relatively large antique knife collection, daggers, bayonets, short swords, pocket knives of every variety, and Ive not come across one that has a blade capable of inflicting a dagger sized wound in a folding format.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Mike

She is either drinking that afternoon or working that afternoon, and the state she is in when picked up suggests the former.

Didn`t people in Eddowes situation have to "work" to be able to drink, and drinking was part of working (ie. they had to get drinks bought for them or be given the money directly).

Not saying its THE answer, just that based on that story she might well have been trying to extort some money from the party she intended to finger first. The reward money might have paled in comparison with a blackmail settlement.

Fair enough.

She said she had earned and spent her doss a few times over, and she had no other occupation that she plied after midnight that I'm aware of. It within the known and accepted data that Polly, and Annie, spoke to witnesses whose statements indicate both women were actively soliciting on the nights they were killed. There is no such evidence, unless Hutchinson clears things up for you, that any other Canonical was actively doing the same.

But, Chapman and Nichols didn`t say "I`m off to find a man for money".
Chapman may have been looking for Ted Stanley to borrow some money, and Nichols may have been looking for whomever bought her drinks earlier in the evening.

[DirectorDave]

Which came first Pearly Pol's soldier story or the post mortem?

Kelleene's mention of "Sword Bayonet or Dagger" always seemed to be pointing towards the soldier story, perhaps the good Doctor was influenced with the direction of his findings.