Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[Abby Normal]

Getting ready for it, perhaps. Of course, lying down, spreading her legs and lifting her skirts is something one might expect a prostitute to do.

Or more likely standing up against a wall and hiking their skirt up, which was the usual way they went about it back then as everybody knows.

[Sam Flynn]

Unless of course you think they were having sex lying on the ground when she was killed.

Getting ready for it, perhaps. Of course, lying down, spreading her legs and lifting her skirts is something one might expect a prostitute to do.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd never seen this word in this context - it seems my childhood was far less innocent than I'd thought.

Indeed. I think I'll have to read Cider With Rosie again...

[etenguy]

than with the thought that they were scrumping.

I'd never seen this word in this context - it seems my childhood was far less innocent than I'd thought.

[Abby Normal]

Very much awake, if the impression of recent intimacy by (I think) PC Barrett is anything to go by.

I think that has more to do with the apparent sexual looking positioning of the body with the legs being spread and the skirt hiked up than with the thought that they were scrumping.

Unless of course you think they were having sex lying on the ground when she was killed.

[Sam Flynn]

But I think she was more than likely awake when attacked

Very much awake, if the impression of recent intimacy by (I think) PC Barrett is anything to go by.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Harry may have a point about her clothes being in disarray due to the nature of the attack, as Tabram`s skirt is not described by witnesses as raised or lifted (please correct me if I`m wrong). Yes, they say she looked liked she`d being outraged or something, but not raised.

I don`t agree with Tabram been asleep or passed out on the stairs. Her regular lodging in George Street was about 100 yards from George Yard.

Hi Jon
As others have shown her skirt was raised, just like the others and it’s also the clincher for me to include McKenzie.

Re sleeping- it doesn’t really matter if her regular crash pad was nearby, if your hammered and tired and or without money. Plus witnesses said people crashed their. But I think she was more than likely awake when attacked, the asleep thing is just a thought.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Gareth and Christer

[Fisherman]

"The clothes were turned up as far as the centre of the body, leaving the lower part of the body exposed; the legs were open, and altogether her position was such as to at once suggest in my mind that recent intimacy had taken place."

East London Observer, Aug 11.

[Sam Flynn]

"The woman was a perfect stranger to witness. Her clothes were all disarranged, as if she had had a struggle with someone" (John Saunders Reeves)

"Her clothes were thrown upwards from the skirt of the dress." (PC Barrett)

In connection with the latter, it should be noted that Tabram was wearing a skirt AND a petticoat, but Barrett only mentioned her skirt having been thrown up.

[Jon Guy]

hi Harry
no I see what your saying-just too much of a coincidence to me.

Hi Abby

Harry may have a point about her clothes being in disarray due to the nature of the attack, as Tabram`s skirt is not described by witnesses as raised or lifted (please correct me if I`m wrong). Yes, they say she looked liked she`d being outraged or something, but not raised.

I don`t agree with Tabram been asleep or passed out on the stairs. Her regular lodging in George Street was about 100 yards from George Yard.

[Abby Normal]

If she's slumped on the floor and her body has been frenziedly stabbed, her clothes are bound to be in disarray. And in the "canonical" cases the skirts would've been raised to mutilate the body. Might be a signature trait, I don't rule it out, but you could be reading too much into it.

hi Harry
no I see what your saying-just too much of a coincidence to me.

[Harry D]

well they weren't raped and as far as they could tell no sex took place. there wasn't even overt evidence that a struggle took place.they were post mortem mutilated while lying down and the skirt was raised to gain unencumbered access to the abdomen and private parts.

and its pretty much well known that when engaging in the sex act it was done standing up. so no reason to leave a victim with the skirt raised up to expose the abdomen unless it was because the killer wanted to deliberately do it.

If she's slumped on the floor and her body has been frenziedly stabbed, her clothes are bound to be in disarray. And in the "canonical" cases the skirts would've been raised to mutilate the body. Might be a signature trait, I don't rule it out, but you could be reading too much into it.

[Abby Normal]

I've finally made time to read Trow's book on the Torso murders, and in a chapter describing Jack's victims he says the following;

"I personally believe that Jack killed seven times, although his first attack, on Martha Tabram, may have been carried out on a woman already dead."


I haven't read any further as yet, but is Trow suggesting that Jack came across an already murdered Tabram and decided to add a bit of his own work?

If nothing else, it would explain the apparent use of two different weapons.

possible but highly doubtful. if anything he came upon an already passed out tabram and attacked her.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've finally made time to read Trow's book on the Torso murders, and in a chapter describing Jack's victims he says the following;

"I personally believe that Jack killed seven times, although his first attack, on Martha Tabram, may have been carried out on a woman already dead."


I haven't read any further as yet, but is Trow suggesting that Jack came across an already murdered Tabram and decided to add a bit of his own work?

If nothing else, it would explain the apparent use of two different weapons.