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Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Paddy View Post
    Has this been seen before?
    I have seen it, or similar before, but I’m not sure it was here or another place.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
      Barrett's speaking with a soldier has no direct bearing on the murder of Tabram at all, Killeen did not offer a bayonet as a likely murder weapon, and Pearly Poll's story doesn't hold up at all to scrutiny.

      Tom Wescott
      Thought I'd mention I found your book most interesting.

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      • #48
        Paddy, yes, that's been seen before. It has nothing to do with 'our' Martha Tabram.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

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        • #49
          Hi Abby, good to see you as well!

          Etenguy, thanks for saying that. In my book I quote a police document suggesting it was not believed a bayonet had anything to do with the murder. In fact, if you study the literature at the time, it's clear a bayonet was only suggested because of idea that soldier had killed Tabram. Tabram was not seen in the company of a soldier that night. She may have been murdered by a soldier, or a baker, a doctor, take your pick. But there's nothing in evidence to compel that a soldier be given any special consideration. This is why by the time of Polly Nichols murder, the soldier theory was dead in the water.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

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          • #50
            Originally posted by etenguy View Post
            My reading of the evidence is that it is insufficient to conclude a bayonet was used in the stabbing of Martha Tabram.

            The soldier as murderer conclusion, while possible, is also uncertain. The only evidence is that one (might I suggest unreliable) witness states Martha was with a soldier much earlier that night and a policeman who challenged a soldier close to the murder scene was told he was waiting for a chum who had gone with a girl. This soldier was early to mid 20s. Describing Martha Tabram as a girl might have been a stretch.

            Whether Martha had been drinking with Pearly poll and soldiers earlier or not, and whether Martha had entertained a soldier's friend during the evening, or not. There is no evidence either was the killer.

            I am more convinced by Abby's argument that this was an early murder of the ripper, for the reasons she has provided. It would fit with the escalation and refinement of technique and MO as the ripper murders progressed.
            You don't have to conclude it was a bayonet, you only have to follow Killeen's description of the weapon as a "dagger". Something, which in length and breadth, can be very similar to bayonets of the period.

            The evidence suggests that she was killed with 2 weapons, one considerably smaller used in all but one wound. That doesn't suggest 1 man switching blades, that suggests a second person with a larger blade. The evidence of the soldiers is only relevant in that soldiers, and perhaps other men, were travelling in pairs that night. And the Bank Holiday allowed them to carry weapons that were dagger sized on their person.

            Since only soldiers were allowed to carry those large bladed instruments openly on the street that night, and since we know soldiers were travelling in pairs that night, due to the soldier waiting for a mate, and since we have murder evidence that suggests 2 men and 1 larger sized blade, then its not too hard to connect the dots. For some.

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            • #51
              From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.
                For once we actually agree, Michael. That’s one of the reasons I’ve sat on the fence about Tabram. There are circumstantial similarities to the other murders but I can’t see the killer’s signature evolving to that degree within a month.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                  Paddy, yes, that's been seen before. It has nothing to do with 'our' Martha Tabram.
                  Was that account in your book Tom? I find it interesting, but I was never sent a review copy so can't comment any further.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    You don't have to conclude it was a bayonet, you only have to follow Killeen's description of the weapon as a "dagger". Something, which in length and breadth, can be very similar to bayonets of the period.
                    And yet it was Killeen who suggested it was not likely to have been a bayonet.

                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    The evidence suggests that she was killed with 2 weapons, one considerably smaller used in all but one wound. That doesn't suggest 1 man switching blades, that suggests a second person with a larger blade. The evidence of the soldiers is only relevant in that soldiers, and perhaps other men, were travelling in pairs that night. And the Bank Holiday allowed them to carry weapons that were dagger sized on their person.
                    I doubt whether the killer, if not a soldier, was bothered about adhering to who could and could not carry weapons,

                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    Since only soldiers were allowed to carry those large bladed instruments openly on the street that night, and since we know soldiers were travelling in pairs that night, due to the soldier waiting for a mate, and since we have murder evidence that suggests 2 men and 1 larger sized blade, then its not too hard to connect the dots. For some.
                    You can connect the dots that way - perfectly plausible. But not the only speculation that is plausible.
                    Last edited by etenguy; 11-18-2017, 07:13 AM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.
                      This I think is the strongest argument to discount Martha Tabram's murder being committed by the Ripper.

                      However, I work in education. I have seen learners attempt a task and mess it up. The next time they attempt the same task, they often take a very different approach. Could the Ripper have been unsatisfied by his first attempt and then change to one which proved more satisfying?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by etenguy View Post
                        Could the Ripper have been unsatisfied by his first attempt and then change to one which proved more satisfying?
                        I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                        • #57
                          Hi.
                          The overkill stabbing, could be the result of a female killer [ at least with Tabram] was Pearly poll questioned?
                          Regards Richard.

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                          • #58
                            hi jon. looking at your photos of 1888 bayonets and clasp blades. with a dagger,both sides of the blade are sharpened. do you think one side of the clasp blade not being sharpened would have caused problems if trying to push it through the breastbone? or created a certain type of cut identifiable to a doctor?
                            there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.
                              You may be right, or the frenzy of stabbing may have been the result of a growing dissatisfaction within him ending by killing her with a longer bladed knife out of frustration. Hence stabbing was not part of his on-going method.

                              The majority opinion agrees with you, hence Martha Tabram is not included in the canon. However, I am struck by all the other similarities and find it difficult to dismiss her as a potential ripper victim.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
                                hi jon. looking at your photos of 1888 bayonets and clasp blades. with a dagger,both sides of the blade are sharpened. do you think one side of the clasp blade not being sharpened would have caused problems if trying to push it through the breastbone? or created a certain type of cut identifiable to a doctor?
                                Hello Robert.

                                Interestingly, Killeen made no mention of an attempt to stab her in the breastbone with the smaller weapon. So, the killer may have not considered it.
                                As for myself, I would think it was expecting too much to stab through the breastbone with a penknife, yet I know others have posted press reports describing killings which say a penknife was used in such a way.

                                Certainly, every type of blade offers a particular shape and depth of cut which can help to identify the weapon used, or at least eliminate the majority of potential weapons.
                                This was known to doctors of the time.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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