What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say?

[Wickerman]

I don't think we should get too precise with the definition of pelerine, Jon, essentially it's a posh version of a shawl.

Hi Joshua.
I'm just a little concerned that we don't dismiss the difference between a shawl and a pelerine.


Pelerine originally referred to a woman’s narrow cape of fabric or fur, or fur trimming, with long pointed ends in front. During the 1840s, the pelerine became part of a dress, matching in fabric, covering the shoulders and coming to a point (or pair of points) at the front centre of the midriff. A dress could include the bodice and skirt, sleeves and pelerine, all separate pieces to put together. The pelerine would hide where the sleeves were tied to the bodice, and created a smooth, sloped shoulder-line. By the 1850s, the pelerine started to be crafted as part of the bodice, and this style continued into the 1860s. Capes continued to be made in this shape and size as well, and large capes and mantles would feature a pelerine of the same fabric and design. “An ermine pelerine had slipped off the right shoulder, displaying a white throat, round which was a string of pearls, and her brown hair was smoothly braided, entwining a bunch of lily of the valley.” The Ladies’ Garland, Philadelphia, 1839.

http://www.katetattersall.com/victorian-fashion-terms-n-z/

Kelly may have had both a shawl & a pelerine, though I am not advocating to her a sizable wardrobe. She did bring a large chest of fancy clothing from the West End when she finally settled in the East End.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
At 9.am Mrs Prater stated , ''She was wearing [ Kelly]' a Jacket, and Bonnet, and went on to say she herself does not own such things.
At 1145 Mrs Cox stated Kelly was wearing a Red Pelerine.
Vastly different clothing.
So who was accurate regarding sighting. ?
We know Mrs Harvey left Kelly a Bonnet on the Thursday evening,, so that gives credence to Praters account.
Maybe then Mrs Cox was mistaken about seeing Blotchy that evening, and it was the previous night, rather like Hutchinson has been accused of.
Remains of a charred bonnet , and Velvet were found burnt in the fire.
We know Kelly owned a black velvet jacket.
Police were of the opinion that both Jacket and Bonnet were burnt because they were bloodstained.
Never explained.
Regards Richard.

Maxwell reported her as wearing a black velvet bodice. Could this be the jacket mentioned by Prater? The bodice was apparently found in the room, in front of the fireplace, not in it.

"That the woman had had no struggle with her betrayer was shown by her position and the way in which her garments, including a velvet bodice, were arranged by the fireplace."

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Jon. Some accounts do say that Mary was heard singing by several inhabitants of the court, so Mrs & Mrs P could well have been two of them.
And also Mrs Cox of course. In one report she says she stayed awake all night, until the man called for the rent (presumably Bowyer, before he got to no.13) but didn't hear anything after 1am. So that and the singing does seem to make it unlikely she mixed up the days.

[Wickerman]

Good point, I'd forgotten she said she heard singing too - do you know when she claimed that, and what time?

The time given was "about 12:30 am".

I know you think Hutt was referring to her apron, but I've always thought he was referring to the white hndkerchief she wore as a scarf, since he was loosening things around her neck at the time. I don't think an apron would need loosening. But that's an argument for another time.

In the US the term was used for a female servants frock, it looked like a night gown. Some manufacturers of aprons in the UK still use the term 'wrapper', or did when I last looked a couple of years ago.
Anyhow, not to get sidetracked....

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua, there is also Catherine Pickett? (was that her name?), across at No.12 who heard singing.

Good point, I'd forgotten she said she heard singing too - do you know when she claimed that, and what time? McCarthy said Mary was last heard at 1am which was the same time Cox gave, which is why I go with her as the source.
I think some papers gave ger name as Pickell. If it wasn't for her husband stopping her going down to complain about Mary's singing, we might have another description of Blotchy.

The term 'wrapper' was also used for an apron. PC Hutt used that term at the Eddowes inquest.

I know you think Hutt was referring to her apron, but I've always thought he was referring to the white hndkerchief she wore as a scarf, since he was loosening things around her neck at the time. I don't think an apron would need loosening. But that's an argument for another time.

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua, there is also Catherine Pickett? (was that her name?), across at No.12 who heard singing.

The term 'wrapper' was also used for an apron. PC Hutt used that term at the Eddowes inquest.

[Joshua Rogan]

Julia Vanturney also said that she often sang irish songs. But she didn't hear her singing on the night of her death. Nor did Mrs Prater. In fact, isn't Cox the only source for the singing, at inquest? I know McCarthy says in a press interview that she was heard singing, but the logical source for him saying this is Cox, no?

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, Cox says she wore a red pelerine, which is a fitted cape around the shoulders, with a collar, if I'm not mistaken.
Maxwell says the woman she saw wore a maroon shawl.

I don't think we should get too precise with the definition of pelerine, Jon, essentially it's a posh version of a shawl. Yes Cox calls it a pelerine in her inquest statement, but in her police statement she says it's a red knitted crossover.
Likewise Maxwell calls it a "morone shawl" in court, but "coloured wrapper" in her police statement.

I did read somewhere that a red garment (shawl/pelerine?) was found in room 13, (was this by Abberline?).
I think Debs once mentioned it, for the life of me I can't find that statement.
It wasn't from the inquest.

Maria Harvey says she left a pawn ticket for a shawl with Mary Jane, is that what you're thinking of?

[Wickerman]

Good point, and I think McCarthy said the same that she was always singing.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
Problem being, Mrs Cox allegedly told her niece that Kelly was always singing so that does not indicate for certain the night of the 8th /morning of the 9th.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Maybe then Mrs Cox was mistaken about seeing Blotchy that evening, and it was the previous night, rather like Hutchinson has been accused of.

That was my conjecture some time back Richard. Cox is the only witness who said it was raining, and raining hard. Neither Lewis, Kennedy, Bowyer, or Hutchinson say it was raining.
Thats negative evidence of course but it is worth pointing out.
However, Cox does mention the singing.....so she is redeemed I guess.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
At 9.am Mrs Prater stated , ''She was wearing [ Kelly]' a Jacket, and Bonnet, and went on to say she herself does not own such things.
At 1145 Mrs Cox stated Kelly was wearing a Red Pelerine.
Vastly different clothing.
So who was accurate regarding sighting. ?
We know Mrs Harvey left Kelly a Bonnet on the Thursday evening,, so that gives credence to Praters account.
Maybe then Mrs Cox was mistaken about seeing Blotchy that evening, and it was the previous night, rather like Hutchinson has been accused of.
Remains of a charred bonnet , and Velvet were found burnt in the fire.
We know Kelly owned a black velvet jacket.
Police were of the opinion that both Jacket and Bonnet were burnt because they were bloodstained.
Never explained.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua.

Yes, Cox says she wore a red pelerine, which is a fitted cape around the shoulders, with a collar, if I'm not mistaken.
Maxwell says the woman she saw wore a maroon shawl.

I did read somewhere that a red garment (shawl/pelerine?) was found in room 13, (was this by Abberline?).
I think Debs once mentioned it, for the life of me I can't find that statement.
It wasn't from the inquest.

[Joshua Rogan]

Thats what I wondered too, - "short, stout & dark"? - doesn't fit what others say about Kelly.
Also, he says he's known her for five years, but three years previous Kelly was living at Breezers Hill?
I also suspect Maxwell saw someone else.

Maurice Lewis described the activity of Maxwell - going for milk, not Mary Kelly. So perhaps the press report of what Lewis said was a misunderstanding by the reporter?
We might wonder if Maxwell was short, stout & dark......?

I found two sources that mention Maxwell's height - one said 5'0", the other 5'5". Make of that what you will.

Although it's possible Mrs.Maxwell had the day wrong, her description of Mary's clothing is consistent with that given by Mrs Cox, both mentioning the red pellerine (or wrapper as one account calls it!), the same one Catherine Pickett tried to borrow from Mary around 07:30. So unlikely I think that she had Mary confused with someone else.

[Joshua Rogan]

Indeed, Wickerman. The five years that Lewis said he had known her makes no sense at all, as she was not in the East End in 83.

This used to bother me too, but then we don't know where Lewis was living five years earlier (unless anyone has looked into it?). And there's always the (admittedly slight) possibility that, being a tailor, he originally fitted Mary for the dresses she later tried to get back after leaving the West End.