12:45 am

[Joshua Rogan]

[/B]
I keep getting Easter Sunday surprises. Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

If Schwartz was trying to suggest the attacker he saw was a gentile, then he did a particularly poor job of it. Abberline said "I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say". Hardly the sort of definitive statement designed to deflect suspicion away from Jews. And Swanson's report actually says "the use of Lipski increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew". So the entire exercise was apparently a dismal failure.

Take Israel out of the equation altogether, then remove Brown, because at 12:45 he clearly saw the young couple also seen by Fanny and so he didnt see Liz Stride either, and then follow the story from PC Smiths departure at 12:35, and youll see a whole different scenario. Liz not being seen in ANY of Fannys occasional trips to the doorway between 12:30 and 1am, and certainly not after 12:50. But Spooner, Heschberg, and Kozebrodksi saw her during that 12:35-1am time frame. Dying, in the passageway.

This simply makes no sense. If it wasn't Stride & companion who Brown saw at 12:45, then it was most likely Spooner & sweetheart, who we know were hanging about in Fairclough St that night. But according to his time guestimate (and thus you), Spooner had already been alerted to the murder by this time, by Louis and Koz shouting for the police. Something Brown didn't hear until 15 minutes later when he'd finished his supper.
And once again; Whatever time Heshburg thought it was, he wasn't alerted to the murder until after the police had arrived.

[John G]

Hi John
Why would he lie?

Hi Abby,

Well that's the $64, 000 question, although there were undoubtedly witnesses throughout the Ripper enquiry who either lied or gave dubious evidence. Perhaps he was hoping to sell his story to the newspapers?

[Abby Normal]

I'm fairly convinced Schwartz lied, although I don't believe there was a club conspiracy. I think he acted independently.

Hi John
Why would he lie?

[John G]

If it is so blatantly obvious that Schwartz lied and there was in fact a club conspiracy how did the police miss that? The police apparently hated the club and this would have given them a golden opportunity to make trouble for them but there is zero evidence that the police felt that the club was somehow involved.

c.d.

I'm fairly convinced Schwartz lied, although I don't believe there was a club conspiracy. I think he acted independently.

[c.d.]

If it is so blatantly obvious that Schwartz lied and there was in fact a club conspiracy how did the police miss that? The police apparently hated the club and this would have given them a golden opportunity to make trouble for them but there is zero evidence that the police felt that the club was somehow involved.

c.d.

[John G]

[/B]
I keep getting Easter Sunday surprises. Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

Take Israel out of the equation altogether, then remove Brown, because at 12:45 he clearly saw the young couple also seen by Fanny and so he didnt see Liz Stride either, and then follow the story from PC Smiths departure at 12:35, and youll see a whole different scenario. Liz not being seen in ANY of Fannys occasional trips to the doorway between 12:30 and 1am, and certainly not after 12:50. But Spooner, Heschberg, and Kozebrodksi saw her during that 12:35-1am time frame. Dying, in the passageway.

Liz goes into the passageway to wait for someone or something after 12:35. Its there she is killed before 1am.

PC Smith almost certainly saw Stride between 12:40 and 12:45, which means Spooner's evidence, for example, can be safely discarded, particularly as he didn't even possess a watch.

This has been discussed at length in a previous thread: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9642&page=11

[c.d.]

"Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

Hello Michael,

"almost certain?" That seems just a tad strong when it is simply an allegation without proof to back it up. This was not the first murder in Whitechapel that Fall where a prostitute had her throat cut. Did anyone or any nearby place connected with those sites fall under immediate suspicion? Just because she was killed near the club it does not follow that the club therefore had to be involved. Lying to the police in a murder investigation is a serious business. Why take that chance rather than simply cooperate fully which is what they appear to have done?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Probably! There's nothing new under the sun.

However, I'm almost convinced Schwartz invented "BS Man" to protect the socialists club.

I keep getting Easter Sunday surprises. Its almost certain Schwartz is the red herring in the Stride murder investigation, and considering the way his story even suggests that the murder started with a street assault by a gentile, its surely a creation for the Clubs benefit, not a recollection.

Take Israel out of the equation altogether, then remove Brown, because at 12:45 he clearly saw the young couple also seen by Fanny and so he didnt see Liz Stride either, and then follow the story from PC Smiths departure at 12:35, and youll see a whole different scenario. Liz not being seen in ANY of Fannys occasional trips to the doorway between 12:30 and 1am, and certainly not after 12:50. But Spooner, Heschberg, and Kozebrodksi saw her during that 12:35-1am time frame. Dying, in the passageway.

Liz goes into the passageway to wait for someone or something after 12:35. Its there she is killed before 1am.

[Robert St Devil]

john i think that would depend on whether or not you considered schwartz and lawende to be ,in cahoots, since both corroborated on the description of a man wearing a peaked cap. i,m considering that schwartz saw what he said michael and harry. i,m comfortable with men,s clubs being fronts for criminal activity; politics, business and crime go hand in hand. i just can,t reason out WHY the club would kill this girl so close to their club without covering up the crime.

[Harry D]

Just out of interest, as it ever been argued that Schwartz murdered Stride, similarly inventing BS man as a suspect? Although I accept the idea seems completely far fetched!

Probably! There's nothing new under the sun.

However, I'm almost convinced Schwartz invented "BS Man" to protect the socialists club.

[John G]

It's been argued that George Hutchinson may have murdered Kelly and therefore invented Astrachan Man to cover his tracks.

Just out of interest, as it ever been argued that Schwartz murdered Stride, similarly inventing BS man as a suspect? Although I accept the idea seems completely far fetched!

[Michael W Richards]

I think you've got the balance spot on with that. If, as seems to have been the case, she was well known to the local Jewish community why would she need to wait around outside the Club, whatever her reason for being there?

Im not narcissistic in the slightest but I do like when someone gets it. I believe there may be answers in the stories about Unfortunates paid to spy on clubs and people during that period...she may well have been seen as being one of them. All it would have taken is one intoxicated aggressive bodyguard, hired when the speaker was to be William Morris that night and threats were being received. Keep the hired security even though the speaker changed, and the street thug mentality of this individual caused him to act, briefly, with excessive violence.

I think the club members took more time that they admit to deciding what to do about Liz, based upon their perceptions of what the club might experience as backlash over a possible ripper killing in their passageway. And I believe its possible they did so because they had hired the eventual killer.

[Bridewell]

She says she has been gainfully employed the past months cleaning "among the Jews", and here we have a Jewish Socialist club in need of cleaning. I don't see it as farfetched. And if that's the case, then it may have been misinterpreted why she was there by someone at the club and it escalated to fatal, or maybe she was there to meet a Jewish man socially.

I put about equal weight on them as possibilities...although I cant say probability based on known data.

I think you've got the balance spot on with that. If, as seems to have been the case, she was well known to the local Jewish community why would she need to wait around outside the Club, whatever her reason for being there?

[Michael W Richards]

Granted. The case becomes more linear when the Double Event is removed from the file: man murders an unfortunate woman in the street; in a backyard; in an apartment, and with each subsequent murder, the violence against her body steadily increases along with his need for privacy as the civil action of the East End grows against him. So... I can keep an open mind, Michael, that the Double Event might have been a radical event in the story of Jack the Ripper (or the work of a copycat).

I am forming the belief that accommodations have to be made for Schwartz' tale in the case regardless of Mrs. Mortimer's speculations on the hour and minutes that she spent at her doorway. His evidence is superior to hers... so a place for it has to be reserved. This is based on 3 points:

1. He identified Elizabeth Stride at the mortuary as the woman who he saw being attacked.
2. He provided a description of a peaked cap.
3. He didn't fool Inspector Abberline*.


*Aside: "HE HAD A KNIFE, I SWEAR HE DID!"
the idea may have been debunked already, but I just wonder... if Inspector Abberline warned Schwartz against using the words "Lipski" and "pipe" when dealing with the media.

If the attack was seen inside the gates, maybe 10-15 minutes earlier than currently believed, then he would of course have no issue identifying Liz. Or the peaked Cap. Id just add on point three that Hutchinsons tale took Abberline too...where did that lead?

I believe that Abberline among all the other policeman on foot in the area had a personal stake in catching this killer or killers. This was where he earned his stripes, where they gave him a cane in appreciation for his service to the local community, where he trailed his early Fenian arrests.

The killer(s) was working his turf, so to speak.

[Robert St Devil]

Granted. The case becomes more linear when the Double Event is removed from the file: man murders an unfortunate woman in the street; in a backyard; in an apartment, and with each subsequent murder, the violence against her body steadily increases along with his need for privacy as the civil action of the East End grows against him. So... I can keep an open mind, Michael, that the Double Event might have been a radical event in the story of Jack the Ripper (or the work of a copycat).

I am forming the belief that accommodations have to be made for Schwartz' tale in the case regardless of Mrs. Mortimer's speculations on the hour and minutes that she spent at her doorway. His evidence is superior to hers... so a place for it has to be reserved. This is based on 3 points:

1. He identified Elizabeth Stride at the mortuary as the woman who he saw being attacked.
2. He provided a description of a peaked cap.
3. He didn't fool Inspector Abberline*.


*Aside: "HE HAD A KNIFE, I SWEAR HE DID!"
the idea may have been debunked already, but I just wonder... if Inspector Abberline warned Schwartz against using the words "Lipski" and "pipe" when dealing with the media.