12:45 am

[Sam Flynn]

Cadosch said he noticed the time was 05:32 when he walked past Spitalfields church on his way to work, which is pretty precise.

True story: I checked my watch this morning, whilst waiting for the coffee shop to open. I couldn't honestly tell you precisely what time it was but, if pressed, I might say it was 07:15, but I'm not actually recalling a fact, only making an informed guess; it might have been 07:10 or 07:25. My only reason for checking the time was to gauge roughly how long I'd have to wait for my caffeine shot; I had no reason to register the time with any accuracy.

In similar vein, Cadoche presumably needed to check if he was roughly on track for work, but that would scarcely have warranted his registering such a specific time, still less to have recalled it with such precision when asked about it later. Seen in that light, how much confidence should we have?

[Joshua Rogan]

I disagree with Phillips, who seems to have been thinking in terms of a surgical procedure, not a rip'n'slash raid on a woman's abdomen. In all seriousness, if that carnage took 10 minutes max I'd be amazed.

I tend to agree, but Phillips gave two times at inquest;

"The Coroner: Can you give any idea how long it would take to perform the incisions found on the body?
Dr. Phillips: I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. The whole inference seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body."

We know that the wounds inflicted on Eddowes probably took less than 10 minutes, Dr Browne I think stated it could have been done in as little as 5 minutes. So even Phillips' shorter time seems somewhat cautious.

I certainly think that using Cadoche as the benchmark makes a lot of sense, although I don't know quite how precise his time-keeping would have been, given the era we're talking about. Personally, I don't feel that the discrepancy between his and Elizabeth Long's (estimated) timings is too much of an issue.

Cadosch said he noticed the time was 05:32 when he walked past Spitalfields church on his way to work, which is pretty precise. It's about 2-3 minutes walk from his door so he would have left just about when Long said she had her sighting.

[Sam Flynn]

But Annies body temperature almost fooled the physicians Sam, she would have been warmer had she been found right after this cutting. And Phillips believed the cutting would have taken longer.

I disagree with Phillips, who seems to have been thinking in terms of a surgical procedure, not a rip'n'slash raid on a woman's abdomen. In all seriousness, if that carnage took 10 minutes max I'd be amazed.

I think using Cadosche as the start time makes the most sense in that regard.

I certainly think that using Cadoche as the benchmark makes a lot of sense, although I don't know quite how precise his time-keeping would have been, given the era we're talking about. Personally, I don't feel that the discrepancy between his and Elizabeth Long's (estimated) timings is too much of an issue.

[Michael W Richards]

Mrs Long would have walked right past Chapman and her companion just as the man seems to be propositioning her. So he would have been aware of Mrs Long just after he had said will you. He could abort

Whereas, BS Man had already thrown Stride down at the point he notices Schwartz. Too late to abort.

I appreciate that long held beliefs are hard to abandon, but again, for the umpteenth time, IF Cadosche was lying, then maybe Mrs Long saw Annie. If not, she didn't. Any evidence he was lying?

[Michael W Richards]

I'd put it even lower. Fewer than 10 minutes would have been sufficient for the crude evisceration of Annie Chapman.

But Annies body temperature almost fooled the physicians Sam, she would have been warmer had she been found right after this cutting. And Phillips believed the cutting would have taken longer. I think using Cadosche as the start time makes the most sense in that regard.

[Jon Guy]

But the salient point is that both Long and Schwartz approached the men they saw from behind, so there's no reason to suppose (unless there's more to the source you mention) that Long's man was any more aware he was being watched than Schwartz's man.

Mrs Long would have walked right past Chapman and her companion just as the man seems to be propositioning her. So he would have been aware of Mrs Long just after he had said will you. He could abort

Whereas, BS Man had already thrown Stride down at the point he notices Schwartz. Too late to abort.

[Joshua Rogan]

Fair enough, Jon, I should probably have used "less complete" rather than "wrong".
But the salient point is that both Long and Schwartz approached the men they saw from behind, so there's no reason to suppose (unless there's more to the source you mention) that Long's man was any more aware he was being watched than Schwartz's man.

[Jon Guy]

Most papers that report on the inquest have her saying she "saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking", or slight variations thereof. As far as I can tell, only the Daily News says she "saw a man come to a woman and stand and talk with her", however this is not recorded verbatim but paraphrased.
It may be correct, and all the other papers wrong, but since Long says she saw only the man's back, it seems she was behind him - the same as Schwartz and his man.

It`s not that the other papers may be wrong, they just don`t have that extra bit of info.

I don`t have it to hand, but the newspaper source I refer to is in Evans and Rumbelow (Scotland Yard Investigates)

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Sam,
Mrs Long actually witnessed the man approach Chapman whilst she was passing them. (Evans and Rumbelow "Scotland Yard Investigates").

Most papers that report on the inquest have her saying she "saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking", or slight variations thereof. As far as I can tell, only the Daily News says she "saw a man come to a woman and stand and talk with her", however this is not recorded verbatim but paraphrased.
It may be correct, and all the other papers wrong, but since Long says she saw only the man's back, it seems she was behind him - the same as Schwartz and his man.

[Jon Guy]

I'm not so sure, Jon. Mrs Long seems to have walked into Hanbury Street and saw him already talking with Annie, .

Hi Sam,
Mrs Long actually witnessed the man approach Chapman whilst she was passing them. (Evans and Rumbelow "Scotland Yard Investigates").

[Abby Normal]

Actually what really happened is this.

Israel Schwartz was a member of the club. He came out of the club and stride was hanging about solicitating. What a stroke of luck for the ripper. While she was giving him a blow job, holding onto cashoo of course, he couldn't resist, and gently cut her throat, but quickly so she wouldn't drop the cashoo. Before he could mutilate her though his co clubber diemshitz came up and caught him red handed. So they quickly devised a scheme which would not only exonerate Schwartz but the club.

So Schwartz hurried home to await the police to find him so he could eventually tell him the bs man story.while diemshitz acted like he found the body. Schwartz was lying about bs man after all.

So much more interesting than the boring old truth. Plus the case is solved!! It was Schwartz all along.

Peace and I'm out of this nonsense thread.

[Varqm]

My 2 cents.

Depending on how sure Schwartz was about Lipski, and was telling the truth (no corroboration) I believe in the first one.
BS,drunk, man was trying to control/assault Stride.BS man said Lipski - threatening, not one in particular - at both Pipeman and Schwartz, passersby and both strangers to BS man - both didn't want to get involved and scurried off : or Lizzie at Stride - BS man did not care much about Pipeman and Schwartz's presence (I have seen this happen to couples a few times) but again both didn't want to get involved and scurried off .

Club conspiracy to distance themselves from the fault of murder is less believable than just trying to tell the simple truth if they did not commit it.I believe the club members were sensible enough.
They were just recollecting,in their statements,through best effort.
As has been said before witnesses,club members for ex.,are unreliable because they are thinking of something else when an incident occurs as opposed to preparing to notice something so one could observe the details/sequence.

[harry]

I agree with you c.d. The so called assault,may even have been initiated by Stride accosting BS man,and him,wishing to have nothing to do with her,w arding her off. Swarthz was behind BS man when the first contact was made,so not in an ideal position to witness the first moves.

[GUT]

"Let's face it, the only way you can make Schwartz's evidence make sense is by resorting to extreme theories."

Hello John,

I am going to disagree. I think it makes perfect sense if he was not describing a murder but simply a little street hassle.

c.d.

And I've never seen any reason to see it as anything else.

[c.d.]

"Let's face it, the only way you can make Schwartz's evidence make sense is by resorting to extreme theories."

Hello John,

I am going to disagree. I think it makes perfect sense if he was not describing a murder but simply a little street hassle.

c.d.