Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Another point that I would add is that even if we assume that Tabram and McKenzie were Ripper murders, that would still mean that all the Ripper murders occurred in a period of slightly less than 1 year, still a much shorter period of time than the period in which the Torso murders were committed.

Indeed, Lewis, that wouln't change things a whole lot, frequency-wise.

[John Wheat]

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think? Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

Some are proposing that all the Ripper murders and the later Torso murders were by the same man. I think its fanciful.

[Pcdunn]

Hi Frank,

Another point that I would add is that even if we assume that Tabram and McKenzie were Ripper murders, that would still mean that all the Ripper murders occurred in a period of slightly less than 1 year, still a much shorter period of time than the period in which the Torso murders were committed.

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think? Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

[Lewis C]

Hi RD,

The thing is that we don't know if it's accurate, completely or less. But if we assume the Ripper killed more than just the C4 or C5, then all bets will be off, because it would mean that he also killed women less similar or even unsimilar to C4/C5 and perhaps even completely different than Torso Man's victims (if we assume he was responsible for 1873 through to 1889 or even 1902). If we would assume more victims for Torso Man, then things might be more different, still.

So, we either argue based on the 'canonicals', which is what I did, or we incorporate whichever murders we see fit, but, of course, that might very well lead to other insights/'conclusions'.

All of this, however, doesn't change the fact that C4/C5 were killed and mutilated in a certain fashion and timeframe, of which the latter, especially, clearly differed from the timeframe in which Torso Man's victims were killed and mutilated & cut up in.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Another point that I would add is that even if we assume that Tabram and McKenzie were Ripper murders, that would still mean that all the Ripper murders occurred in a period of slightly less than 1 year, still a much shorter period of time than the period in which the Torso murders were committed.

[Fiver]

Do you think you can bring yourself to thinking that I am perhaps not a devious bastard, plotting to misrepresent everything I hear from other posters? For a poster who has just been revealed as cling that I inserted Lechmere into this thread, while all the time it was you and Private Investigator who did that, it seems a bit rich. But each to his own, I guess.

I hsve not speculated on your motives for repeatedly misrepresenting other posters, modern experts, and the original sources. I have noted that you have repeatedly done so.

And here you misrepresent me again. You even misrepresent yourself.

You inserted Lechmere into the Paris Torso Thread. PI's first post in the thread came after that and did not discuss Lechmere. My first post came much later, and was a response to you introducing Lechmere into the thread.

[FrankO]

Thanks for going to all this trouble, Frank!

No worries, Mark. It's good you made me check.

Myself, I worry at the scale of the 'margin of error' where elapsed periods of several weeks are postulated. For that reason, I'm pretty sold on Dr Neville's right arm just being three or four days dead!

I have no problems with that either for the reason already given and I can see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, there's no knowing to be had either way...

Cheers,
Frank

[Mark J D]

I've looked into it, Mark and I based the beginning of August on Dr. Hebbert's findings, but without taking his examinations on all of the body parts into account.

He examined the right arm on 16 September, about which he wrote: "The appearance of the hands would suggest maceration in water from three to four weeks,...", which seems to indicate a time of death around 15 to 20 August.

Then he examined the trunk shortly after its discovery and wrote about that: "The trunk had been mutilated after death, and the death had probably occurred about two months previously." This would put the death at the beginning of August.

About 2 weeks after the trunk he examined the left leg and foot, about which he wrote: "The date of death was six weeks to two months previously." This would put death between half August and the beginning of September.

Based on this we might conclude she was killed somewhere between the beginning of August and the beginning of September. So, I admit my stating "at the beginning of August" was a bit too far back...

Cheers,
Frank

Thanks for going to all this trouble, Frank!

Myself, I worry at the scale of the 'margin of error' where elapsed periods of several weeks are postulated. For that reason, I'm pretty sold on Dr Neville's right arm just being three or four days dead!

Bests,

Mark D.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank. Can I ask what convinces you that the DoD was at the beginning of August?

I've looked into it, Mark and I based the beginning of August on Dr. Hebbert's findings, but without taking his examinations on all of the body parts into account.

He examined the right arm on 16 September, about which he wrote: "The appearance of the hands would suggest maceration in water from three to four weeks,...", which seems to indicate a time of death around 15 to 20 August.

Then he examined the trunk shortly after its discovery and wrote about that: "The trunk had been mutilated after death, and the death had probably occurred about two months previously." This would put the death at the beginning of August.

About 2 weeks after the trunk he examined the left leg and foot, about which he wrote: "The date of death was six weeks to two months previously." This would put death between half August and the beginning of September.

Based on this we might conclude she was killed somewhere between the beginning of August and the beginning of September. So, I admit my stating "at the beginning of August" was a bit too far back...

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Hi Frank. Can I ask what convinces you that the DoD was at the beginning of August?

I have the following, relating to the finding of the right arm:

Daily News, 3 October 1888

... This limb had been in the water for about three days, so that if yesterday's discovery is connected with it the date of the murder would be somewhere about the 8th of September...

Bests,

Mark D.

I'd have to look into that, Mark. In my notes, which I quickly consulted when writing my post, I've written that she'd been dead for about 2 months. In order to know what convinced me to write that down in my notes, I'd have to re-read the material, of which, of course, the snippet from 3 October is a part.

But even if we'd assume that the Whitehall victim was killed at or around 8 September, it wouldn't change my basic point: that Torso Man did have some place for storage at his disposal when he killed Chapman. Which would go against the notion that some have that Torso Man only committed his Ripper crimes when he didn't have a storage room at his disposal.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Ah yes, but that's not completely accurate.

Hi RD,

The thing is that we don't know if it's accurate, completely or less. But if we assume the Ripper killed more than just the C4 or C5, then all bets will be off, because it would mean that he also killed women less similar or even unsimilar to C4/C5 and perhaps even completely different than Torso Man's victims (if we assume he was responsible for 1873 through to 1889 or even 1902). If we would assume more victims for Torso Man, then things might be more different, still.

So, we either argue based on the 'canonicals', which is what I did, or we incorporate whichever murders we see fit, but, of course, that might very well lead to other insights/'conclusions'.

All of this, however, doesn't change the fact that C4/C5 were killed and mutilated in a certain fashion and timeframe, of which the latter, especially, clearly differed from the timeframe in which Torso Man's victims were killed and mutilated & cut up in.

Cheers,
Frank

[Mark J D]

... the Whitehall victim was killed around the beginning of August, which means that her body was probably still kept somewhere when Nichols and Chapman were killed...

Hi Frank. Can I ask what convinces you that the DoD was at the beginning of August?

I have the following, relating to the finding of the right arm:

Daily News, 3 October 1888

... This limb had been in the water for about three days, so that if yesterday's discovery is connected with it the date of the murder would be somewhere about the 8th of September...

Bests,

Mark D.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Mike,

I'd like to add the high frequency Ripper murders 'smack bang' near the end of the very low frequency Torso murders and that the Whitehall victim was killed around the beginning of August, which means that her body was probably still kept somewhere when Nichols and Chapman were killed.

Cheers,
Frank

Ah yes, but that's not completely accurate.

There is an argument to say that the Torso killings went on for much longer, at least until 1902.

Even the list of Ripper murders is incomplete.

The issue lies with the term "canonical"

It condenses the Ripper murders to within a relatively small time frame, but the term does nothing more than constrain the true depth and breadth of the murders.

The so called "canonical 5" has hindered the investigation since day one, because it shields us from seeing the whole truth of the case.

RD

[FrankO]

My in-depth analysis.

Ripper - killed in the streets, bodies left on display and not dismembered.

Torso killer - stored and killed indoors, dismembered, wrapped, parts distributed and chucked in the river at different locations.

Two different men.

Hi Mike,

I'd like to add the high frequency Ripper murders 'smack bang' near the end of the very low frequency Torso murders and that the Whitehall victim was killed around the beginning of August, which means that her body was probably still kept somewhere when Nichols and Chapman were killed.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

So, the way I see it is that he either had a strong link to his victims or the cutting off of the head was aggressive.

Of course, there's the third possibility (already mentioned) that the heads were cut off to facilitate the getting rid of the body (in parts). Still, that would not have been to prevent the identity being discovered.

[FrankO]

An offensive dismemberer intends for only the IDENTIFICATION of his victims to be concealed, but wants the bodies to be DISCOVERED.

Hi RD,

I think that would only be true, back in those days, if he could be sure that he could be linked to the victim (because he had a clear link to her). If she was a stranger to him, then there would be little chance, if any at all, that he would be traced and, so, there would have been little need to cut off her head to make identification difficult or impossible. Back in those days, all the police had was capturing the culprit in the act, having him come forward to confess or having reliable witnesses that would sort of deliver the killer on a silver platter. That Torso Man very likely didn't do the attacking, killing & cutting and dumping in the same place, reduced the risk he took.

So, the way I see it is that he either had a strong link to his victims or the cutting off of the head was aggressive.

All the best,
Frank