Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[The Rookie Detective]

DUPLICATE POST, my apologies.

[John Wheat]

Yes, exactly what Steve said.

Think of a civil service builder who is contracted to carry out building works on the infrastructure, specifically the railway and canal ways...but could also incorporate tramways and roadways.

That said, a Navvy is an umbrella term and Navvies could be Engineers, Stone Masons, Builders etc...

Navvy is literally short for Navigator, ergo, a person who navigates a new path through construction.

It's also rather curious that in the autumn of 1888, huge construction work was going on in Commercial Street; namely the construction of the new tramway.

There was also continued extensions of the Railway, under which both Coles (Ripper) and Pinchin St Torso (Torso Killer) were found shortly after the archways of the Great Eastern Railway had been built...on the same stretch of railway.

There was also the new District line which ran almost parallel with the Whitechapel Road.
Charles Reeves, the founding member of the WVC himself had to uproot his family in the early 1880's and move back to Mile End after the construction of the new station meant his house was demolished. He used to live within 100 yards of the Nichols murder site and his daughter who went on to become a famous actress attended the board school in Bucks Row.

But going back to the Navvy....

What ties all this together is the Board of Works who were responsible for signing off these major infrastructure builds.
The Pinchin St torso was dumped next to the Stone Breaking yard owned by the Board of Works.

The Whitehall torso was dumped in the newly constructed archway forming the foundations of a construction site...the use of Stone would have been incorporated and specialist builders would have been required to work on such a big project.

Then we have George Lusk...

A builder who renovated theatres
A man who previously worked for the board of works
And a man who lead because the focus of the Rippers alleged correspondences.

As much as I admire John Wheat for his knowledge of the case, his choice to dismiss any possible connection between the 2 cases is quite remarkable considering the many pieces of individual evidence that collate to support that there is a link.

I know it makes some feel uncomfortable, but when you take a step back and look at things from outside the box, the coincidences continue to mount up.

Jerry's work on the Board of Works and both his and Debra's exceptional work on the torso case, really does open up the case for the bigger picture that it really is.

The idea that there cannot be any link at all between the 2 cases stems from the romanticism that the Ripper case has created over the decades.

The argument that the killers had different M.O's is an age old excuse that no longer threads water and the archaic concept that the Ripper was a Canonical 5 only man is a thing of the past.

The only way to progress in the The Ripper case, is to try and solve the Torso murders first and then come at the Ripper from a different angle.

RD

The coincidences do not mount up. The idea The Ripper and the Torso Killer are one and the same is pure speculation. The Ripper case is a separate case and the idea that solving the Torso murders first and then come at the Ripper from a different angle is the only way to progress the case is ridiculous. In my opinion the best way to progress the Ripper case is to get rid of all the stupid theories and look at suspects that could have actually been the Ripper. I suggest violent murderers such as Bury and Kelly.

[The Rookie Detective]

excuse my ignorance, but what is a Navvy? i allways assumed it was someone who was in the Navy or some sort of sailor/ merchant marine.

Yes, exactly what Steve said.

Think of a civil service builder who is contracted to carry out building works on the infrastructure, specifically the railway and canal ways...but could also incorporate tramways and roadways.

That said, a Navvy is an umbrella term and Navvies could be Engineers, Stone Masons, Builders etc...

Navvy is literally short for Navigator, ergo, a person who navigates a new path through construction.

It's also rather curious that in the autumn of 1888, huge construction work was going on in Commercial Street; namely the construction of the new tramway.

There was also continued extensions of the Railway, under which both Coles (Ripper) and Pinchin St Torso (Torso Killer) were found shortly after the archways of the Great Eastern Railway had been built...on the same stretch of railway.

There was also the new District line which ran almost parallel with the Whitechapel Road.
Charles Reeves, the founding member of the WVC himself had to uproot his family in the early 1880's and move back to Mile End after the construction of the new station meant his house was demolished. He used to live within 100 yards of the Nichols murder site and his daughter who went on to become a famous actress attended the board school in Bucks Row.

But going back to the Navvy....

What ties all this together is the Board of Works who were responsible for signing off these major infrastructure builds.
The Pinchin St torso was dumped next to the Stone Breaking yard owned by the Board of Works.

The Whitehall torso was dumped in the newly constructed archway forming the foundations of a construction site...the use of Stone would have been incorporated and specialist builders would have been required to work on such a big project.

Then we have George Lusk...

A builder who renovated theatres
A man who previously worked for the board of works
And a man who lead because the focus of the Rippers alleged correspondences.

As much as I admire John Wheat for his knowledge of the case, his choice to dismiss any possible connection between the 2 cases is quite remarkable considering the many pieces of individual evidence that collate to support that there is a link.

I know it makes some feel uncomfortable, but when you take a step back and look at things from outside the box, the coincidences continue to mount up.

Jerry's work on the Board of Works and both his and Debra's exceptional work on the torso case, really does open up the case for the bigger picture that it really is.

The idea that there cannot be any link at all between the 2 cases stems from the romanticism that the Ripper case has created over the decades.

The argument that the killers had different M.O's is an age old excuse that no longer threads water and the archaic concept that the Ripper was a Canonical 5 only man is a thing of the past.

The only way to progress in the The Ripper case, is to try and solve the Torso murders first and then come at the Ripper from a different angle.

RD

[Elamarna]

excuse my ignorance, but what is a Navvy? i allways assumed it was someone who was in the Navy or some sort of sailor/ merchant marine.

Hi Abby

It usually refers to a labourer who built railways, but is also applied to those involved in the construction of Roads or Canals

Steve

[Abby Normal]

excuse my ignorance, but what is a Navvy? i allways assumed it was someone who was in the Navy or some sort of sailor/ merchant marine.

[John Wheat]

Does anyone who is suggesting that Jack the Ripper and the Torso Killer were one and the same actually have any proof of this? Because to me it's an illogical far fetched fanciful theory with no actual proof whatsoever?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

You've brought up some interesting points in a couple of these threads. Thanks for being open minded. Some of the points you bring up I have speculated about myself. Others, I have a different point of view, but along the same line of thinking as you.

With that, I believe in more than one person involved in these cases working together. I believe the Whitehall torso was moved around also, but for a different reason and starting location. I feel the sub-basement of the Police Building or the ground within the construction fences may have been the location of the murder itself. Her clothing was scattered about the construction site. I think her skull may be buried somewhere in that ground. I think the body was moved from within the sub-basement to where it was found, so it COULD be found. The "John Arnold" type announcement coincided with Wildbore holding off finally announcing the odd package to his superiors. He was in the vault Monday morning at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. To me, that's odd behavior. Some press reports state Wildbore said it had a foul odor. Most reports don't say anything about a stench. One report states the trunk appeared to have been treated by Condy's Fluid. That could mask the stench somewhat, I guess.

I believe, personally, in Dr. Neville's report and DoD. Which is sometime around the 8th or 9th of September.

Last we have the strange case of William Wallace Brodie, the self-professed murderer of Alice McKenzie who stated he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Take this next bit for what it's worth, but to me it means something. I just don't know what exactly?

William Wallace Brodie was released from Portland Gaol on August 22nd, 1888. He arrived at Waterloo station and took lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings, Strand. On September 5th, 1888 he reported to the convict office (as required on license) and stated his intention of leaving for Cape of Good Hope. A record check with the Union Steamship company by Sgt. E.C Bradshaw confirmed Brodie was a passenger on the Union ship, SS Athenian, leaving Southampton on September 6, 1888 as a 3rd class passenger. Surprisingly, aboard that same ship were the Hon. Spencer Lyttleton and Lady Frederick Cavendish (Lucy Caroline Lyttleton). Lady Cavendish was the widow of Frederick Cavendish who was murdered in Phoenix Park in 1882. She and Spencer (her brother) had another brother named Albert that was a clergyman in Kimberley. Interesting that Kimberley is exactly where Brodie ended up. Brodie's return passage, of course, was in July of 1889, two days before the murder of Alice McKenzie. Brodie returned on the SS Trojan and worked his passage back as a fireman. He returned to his old lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. Also living at the same exact address, No. 2 Harvey's Buildings, was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame. How is that for a coincidence?

Thank you Jerry for your exceptionally brilliant and captivating post.

I know that you are one of the leading lights in this particular area of the case, and along with Debra, have personally inspired me to delve deeper in this area due to your combined expertise.

Your knowledge of this area of the case is quite remarkable and I am grateful to you for taking the time to give me some much appreciated feedback.

I am also of the opinion that multiple men were involved.

The sighting of the 3 men seen at the location with the cart, and one of them allegedly trying to scale the structure to gain access, just days before the Torso was found, is also a potentially significant occurrence and one I feel has never really been explained.

I find your idea that the victim was killed there also very interesting, because it's not something I had personally considered.
By having murdered the woman in that location, it then reduces the reliance on the killer needing an accomplice to help move the body.

The only solitary point that I would contend is the date of death.
The date is critical when combining the Torso series with the Ripper series.
I have started a new thread which acts as a supplement to this main thread. The reason is that I wanted to focus on a particular area that looks to see the impact on the chronology of each series of murders when combined.

The 24th August date I proposed would take the Whitehall murder to before Nichols rather than afterward.

Even though it's only a couple of weeks difference, the moving the date of death to BEFORE the canonical 5 series began, becomes potentially very relevant indeed.

It supports my belief that killers can and do change their M.O. to adapt, and supports my belief that the Ripper and the Torso killed were the same man, or at the very least, 2 men working together.

There are also another reasons why I believe that the 24th August is the correct date of death.
The first is based on the fact that pieces of newspaper dated the 24th August were found with the body. I don't feel this is by chance, rather a deliberate attempt to highlight the date the woman was killed.

The other reason I won't go into just yet, bur it does support the idea that the killer was a Navvy or someone who worked as a specialist builder.

This brings it into line with the Board of Works and the building of the infrastructure.
It all ties in and I have some interesting findings relating to the 24th August that I feel are just one coincidence too many.

I know that your research into the Board of Works link is unparalleled.

Your research on Brodie is exquisite and I agree that the link to John Arnold at the same address is surely beyond coincidence.

Arnold
Brodie
Wildbore
The Ex-Police Officer

I imagine there to be others

I have always found Le Grand, Reeves, Aarons, Van Gelder, Lusk and Bachert all have interesting links to the case and at least one of them was involved.

The board of works
The newly constructed NSY building, railway lines/arches and canal ways.
The Navvy
George Lusk

These are all factors that are linked to both cases.


Lots more to ponder


RD

[jerryd]

To Frank, Pat and all regarding the older torso cases. Dr. Bond was involved in the 1873 torso case. He didn't link it to the later cases (1887-1889) we have discussed. Perhaps because it was an older case and he didn't remember the details or whatever. I just feel if something important stuck out to link it to the later cases, he would have mentioned it?

[jerryd]

I believe the Whitehall Torso victim was murdered on the 24th August 1888, and then for whatever reason was moved to the cellar of the Whitehall NSY building on the evening of the 29th September, just over a month later, with the assistance of at least one accomplice.

Just hours after the torso was placed in the cellar, the killer then went to murder Eddowes in Mitre Square, his accomplice/s sent to Berner St to cut Stride's throat and to fulfill the profecy of the so-called Double Event.

The murder of Stride was used as a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from the placement of the Torso in the cellar just hours before the double event.

And so the Torso killer's route was from Whitehall to Mitre Square and not from Berner Street, as has always been assumed.

Smoke and Mirrors and all part of the act.

Packer was influenced/persuaded/threatened by Le Grand to give a description of a man who never existed. The story strikingly similar to the Coram St murder on Christmas day 1872

Schwartz was planted and played his part by creating a drama that never actually happened. Just like any good character actor would.

Of course, my hypothesis is partial conjecture.

I do find it interesting though; the fact that the Whitehall Torso was moved from another location, and then deliberately placed in the cellar of NSY... within just a few hours of the Double Event, strangely coincidental.

The moving of the Whitehall Torso and the Ripper "Double Event" are linked.

Or perhaps everything is all just one big coincidence.

RD

Hi RD.

You've brought up some interesting points in a couple of these threads. Thanks for being open minded. Some of the points you bring up I have speculated about myself. Others, I have a different point of view, but along the same line of thinking as you.

With that, I believe in more than one person involved in these cases working together. I believe the Whitehall torso was moved around also, but for a different reason and starting location. I feel the sub-basement of the Police Building or the ground within the construction fences may have been the location of the murder itself. Her clothing was scattered about the construction site. I think her skull may be buried somewhere in that ground. I think the body was moved from within the sub-basement to where it was found, so it COULD be found. The "John Arnold" type announcement coincided with Wildbore holding off finally announcing the odd package to his superiors. He was in the vault Monday morning at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. To me, that's odd behavior. Some press reports state Wildbore said it had a foul odor. Most reports don't say anything about a stench. One report states the trunk appeared to have been treated by Condy's Fluid. That could mask the stench somewhat, I guess.

I believe, personally, in Dr. Neville's report and DoD. Which is sometime around the 8th or 9th of September.

Last we have the strange case of William Wallace Brodie, the self-professed murderer of Alice McKenzie who stated he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Take this next bit for what it's worth, but to me it means something. I just don't know what exactly?

William Wallace Brodie was released from Portland Gaol on August 22nd, 1888. He arrived at Waterloo station and took lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings, Strand. On September 5th, 1888 he reported to the convict office (as required on license) and stated his intention of leaving for Cape of Good Hope. A record check with the Union Steamship company by Sgt. E.C Bradshaw confirmed Brodie was a passenger on the Union ship, SS Athenian, leaving Southampton on September 6, 1888 as a 3rd class passenger. Surprisingly, aboard that same ship were the Hon. Spencer Lyttleton and Lady Frederick Cavendish (Lucy Caroline Lyttleton). Lady Cavendish was the widow of Frederick Cavendish who was murdered in Phoenix Park in 1882. She and Spencer (her brother) had another brother named Albert that was a clergyman in Kimberley. Interesting that Kimberley is exactly where Brodie ended up. Brodie's return passage, of course, was in July of 1889, two days before the murder of Alice McKenzie. Brodie returned on the SS Trojan and worked his passage back as a fireman. He returned to his old lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. Also living at the same exact address, No. 2 Harvey's Buildings, was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame. How is that for a coincidence?

[John Wheat]

I would think that there's a good chance that there was more than one torso murderer.

Making it even less likely that Jack the Ripper and the Torso Killer were the same man.

[Lewis C]

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think? Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

I would think that there's a good chance that there was more than one torso murderer.

[The Rookie Detective]

I believe the Whitehall Torso victim was murdered on the 24th August 1888, and then for whatever reason was moved to the cellar of the Whitehall NSY building on the evening of the 29th September, just over a month later, with the assistance of at least one accomplice.

Just hours after the torso was placed in the cellar, the killer then went to murder Eddowes in Mitre Square, his accomplice/s sent to Berner St to cut Stride's throat and to fulfill the profecy of the so-called Double Event.

The murder of Stride was used as a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from the placement of the Torso in the cellar just hours before the double event.

And so the Torso killer's route was from Whitehall to Mitre Square and not from Berner Street, as has always been assumed.

Smoke and Mirrors and all part of the act.

Packer was influenced/persuaded/threatened by Le Grand to give a description of a man who never existed. The story strikingly similar to the Coram St murder on Christmas day 1872

Schwartz was planted and played his part by creating a drama that never actually happened. Just like any good character actor would.

Of course, my hypothesis is partial conjecture.

I do find it interesting though; the fact that the Whitehall Torso was moved from another location, and then deliberately placed in the cellar of NSY... within just a few hours of the Double Event, strangely coincidental.

The moving of the Whitehall Torso and the Ripper "Double Event" are linked.

Or perhaps everything is all just one big coincidence.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all

I have just started another thread to supplement this one, entitled; "Torso Chronology and Implications for the Ripper"


This is a big area of discussion and so I have tried to isolate a few key points on my new thread.

Thoughts and feedback most welcome


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

I've looked into it, Mark and I based the beginning of August on Dr. Hebbert's findings, but without taking his examinations on all of the body parts into account.

He examined the right arm on 16 September, about which he wrote: "The appearance of the hands would suggest maceration in water from three to four weeks,...", which seems to indicate a time of death around 15 to 20 August.

Then he examined the trunk shortly after its discovery and wrote about that: "The trunk had been mutilated after death, and the death had probably occurred about two months previously." This would put the death at the beginning of August.

About 2 weeks after the trunk he examined the left leg and foot, about which he wrote: "The date of death was six weeks to two months previously." This would put death between half August and the beginning of September.

Based on this we might conclude she was killed somewhere between the beginning of August and the beginning of September. So, I admit my stating "at the beginning of August" was a bit too far back...

Cheers,
Frank

Some excellent points of discussion on this thread so far.

One of the key issues in trying to work out the estimated date of death for the Whitehall murder; is that there is quite a varied estimation, ranging from any time up to 2 months (9 weeks) before discovery.

But the specific date of the murder is of more significance than we perhaps realize.

One thing we have to look past; is the dates on which the various parts were found.
We should instead try and work out the approximate date each victim was murdered; because it then gives us a better insight into the chronology of the series.

RD

[FrankO]

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think?

Hi Pat,

There are a few things that support the notion that they were the work of one man, but I agree that the long period in which all the victims were killed might be seen as a point against that notion

Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

It certainly doesn't have to be so, alhough I think it's a fair proposition that they were based on what we know.

Cheers,
Frank