Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[FrankO]

Thanks for going to all this trouble, Frank!

No worries, Mark. It's good you made me check.

Myself, I worry at the scale of the 'margin of error' where elapsed periods of several weeks are postulated. For that reason, I'm pretty sold on Dr Neville's right arm just being three or four days dead!

I have no problems with that either for the reason already given and I can see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, there's no knowing to be had either way...

Cheers,
Frank

[Fiver]

Do you think you can bring yourself to thinking that I am perhaps not a devious bastard, plotting to misrepresent everything I hear from other posters? For a poster who has just been revealed as cling that I inserted Lechmere into this thread, while all the time it was you and Private Investigator who did that, it seems a bit rich. But each to his own, I guess.

I hsve not speculated on your motives for repeatedly misrepresenting other posters, modern experts, and the original sources. I have noted that you have repeatedly done so.

And here you misrepresent me again. You even misrepresent yourself.

You inserted Lechmere into the Paris Torso Thread. PI's first post in the thread came after that and did not discuss Lechmere. My first post came much later, and was a response to you introducing Lechmere into the thread.

[Lewis C]

Hi RD,

The thing is that we don't know if it's accurate, completely or less. But if we assume the Ripper killed more than just the C4 or C5, then all bets will be off, because it would mean that he also killed women less similar or even unsimilar to C4/C5 and perhaps even completely different than Torso Man's victims (if we assume he was responsible for 1873 through to 1889 or even 1902). If we would assume more victims for Torso Man, then things might be more different, still.

So, we either argue based on the 'canonicals', which is what I did, or we incorporate whichever murders we see fit, but, of course, that might very well lead to other insights/'conclusions'.

All of this, however, doesn't change the fact that C4/C5 were killed and mutilated in a certain fashion and timeframe, of which the latter, especially, clearly differed from the timeframe in which Torso Man's victims were killed and mutilated & cut up in.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Another point that I would add is that even if we assume that Tabram and McKenzie were Ripper murders, that would still mean that all the Ripper murders occurred in a period of slightly less than 1 year, still a much shorter period of time than the period in which the Torso murders were committed.

[Pcdunn]

Hi Frank,

Another point that I would add is that even if we assume that Tabram and McKenzie were Ripper murders, that would still mean that all the Ripper murders occurred in a period of slightly less than 1 year, still a much shorter period of time than the period in which the Torso murders were committed.

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think? Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

[John Wheat]

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think? Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

Some are proposing that all the Ripper murders and the later Torso murders were by the same man. I think its fanciful.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Another point that I would add is that even if we assume that Tabram and McKenzie were Ripper murders, that would still mean that all the Ripper murders occurred in a period of slightly less than 1 year, still a much shorter period of time than the period in which the Torso murders were committed.

Indeed, Lewis, that wouln't change things a whole lot, frequency-wise.

[FrankO]

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think?

Hi Pat,

There are a few things that support the notion that they were the work of one man, but I agree that the long period in which all the victims were killed might be seen as a point against that notion

Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

It certainly doesn't have to be so, alhough I think it's a fair proposition that they were based on what we know.

Cheers,
Frank

[The Rookie Detective]

I've looked into it, Mark and I based the beginning of August on Dr. Hebbert's findings, but without taking his examinations on all of the body parts into account.

He examined the right arm on 16 September, about which he wrote: "The appearance of the hands would suggest maceration in water from three to four weeks,...", which seems to indicate a time of death around 15 to 20 August.

Then he examined the trunk shortly after its discovery and wrote about that: "The trunk had been mutilated after death, and the death had probably occurred about two months previously." This would put the death at the beginning of August.

About 2 weeks after the trunk he examined the left leg and foot, about which he wrote: "The date of death was six weeks to two months previously." This would put death between half August and the beginning of September.

Based on this we might conclude she was killed somewhere between the beginning of August and the beginning of September. So, I admit my stating "at the beginning of August" was a bit too far back...

Cheers,
Frank

Some excellent points of discussion on this thread so far.

One of the key issues in trying to work out the estimated date of death for the Whitehall murder; is that there is quite a varied estimation, ranging from any time up to 2 months (9 weeks) before discovery.

But the specific date of the murder is of more significance than we perhaps realize.

One thing we have to look past; is the dates on which the various parts were found.
We should instead try and work out the approximate date each victim was murdered; because it then gives us a better insight into the chronology of the series.

RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all

I have just started another thread to supplement this one, entitled; "Torso Chronology and Implications for the Ripper"


This is a big area of discussion and so I have tried to isolate a few key points on my new thread.

Thoughts and feedback most welcome


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

I believe the Whitehall Torso victim was murdered on the 24th August 1888, and then for whatever reason was moved to the cellar of the Whitehall NSY building on the evening of the 29th September, just over a month later, with the assistance of at least one accomplice.

Just hours after the torso was placed in the cellar, the killer then went to murder Eddowes in Mitre Square, his accomplice/s sent to Berner St to cut Stride's throat and to fulfill the profecy of the so-called Double Event.

The murder of Stride was used as a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from the placement of the Torso in the cellar just hours before the double event.

And so the Torso killer's route was from Whitehall to Mitre Square and not from Berner Street, as has always been assumed.

Smoke and Mirrors and all part of the act.

Packer was influenced/persuaded/threatened by Le Grand to give a description of a man who never existed. The story strikingly similar to the Coram St murder on Christmas day 1872

Schwartz was planted and played his part by creating a drama that never actually happened. Just like any good character actor would.

Of course, my hypothesis is partial conjecture.

I do find it interesting though; the fact that the Whitehall Torso was moved from another location, and then deliberately placed in the cellar of NSY... within just a few hours of the Double Event, strangely coincidental.

The moving of the Whitehall Torso and the Ripper "Double Event" are linked.

Or perhaps everything is all just one big coincidence.

RD

[Lewis C]

The longer period of time for the finding of dismembered human torsoes is a possible indication that some may have had different murderers, do we think? Or must every case have been by the same Torsoman?

I would think that there's a good chance that there was more than one torso murderer.

[John Wheat]

I would think that there's a good chance that there was more than one torso murderer.

Making it even less likely that Jack the Ripper and the Torso Killer were the same man.

[jerryd]

I believe the Whitehall Torso victim was murdered on the 24th August 1888, and then for whatever reason was moved to the cellar of the Whitehall NSY building on the evening of the 29th September, just over a month later, with the assistance of at least one accomplice.

Just hours after the torso was placed in the cellar, the killer then went to murder Eddowes in Mitre Square, his accomplice/s sent to Berner St to cut Stride's throat and to fulfill the profecy of the so-called Double Event.

The murder of Stride was used as a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from the placement of the Torso in the cellar just hours before the double event.

And so the Torso killer's route was from Whitehall to Mitre Square and not from Berner Street, as has always been assumed.

Smoke and Mirrors and all part of the act.

Packer was influenced/persuaded/threatened by Le Grand to give a description of a man who never existed. The story strikingly similar to the Coram St murder on Christmas day 1872

Schwartz was planted and played his part by creating a drama that never actually happened. Just like any good character actor would.

Of course, my hypothesis is partial conjecture.

I do find it interesting though; the fact that the Whitehall Torso was moved from another location, and then deliberately placed in the cellar of NSY... within just a few hours of the Double Event, strangely coincidental.

The moving of the Whitehall Torso and the Ripper "Double Event" are linked.

Or perhaps everything is all just one big coincidence.

RD

Hi RD.

You've brought up some interesting points in a couple of these threads. Thanks for being open minded. Some of the points you bring up I have speculated about myself. Others, I have a different point of view, but along the same line of thinking as you.

With that, I believe in more than one person involved in these cases working together. I believe the Whitehall torso was moved around also, but for a different reason and starting location. I feel the sub-basement of the Police Building or the ground within the construction fences may have been the location of the murder itself. Her clothing was scattered about the construction site. I think her skull may be buried somewhere in that ground. I think the body was moved from within the sub-basement to where it was found, so it COULD be found. The "John Arnold" type announcement coincided with Wildbore holding off finally announcing the odd package to his superiors. He was in the vault Monday morning at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. To me, that's odd behavior. Some press reports state Wildbore said it had a foul odor. Most reports don't say anything about a stench. One report states the trunk appeared to have been treated by Condy's Fluid. That could mask the stench somewhat, I guess.

I believe, personally, in Dr. Neville's report and DoD. Which is sometime around the 8th or 9th of September.

Last we have the strange case of William Wallace Brodie, the self-professed murderer of Alice McKenzie who stated he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Take this next bit for what it's worth, but to me it means something. I just don't know what exactly?

William Wallace Brodie was released from Portland Gaol on August 22nd, 1888. He arrived at Waterloo station and took lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings, Strand. On September 5th, 1888 he reported to the convict office (as required on license) and stated his intention of leaving for Cape of Good Hope. A record check with the Union Steamship company by Sgt. E.C Bradshaw confirmed Brodie was a passenger on the Union ship, SS Athenian, leaving Southampton on September 6, 1888 as a 3rd class passenger. Surprisingly, aboard that same ship were the Hon. Spencer Lyttleton and Lady Frederick Cavendish (Lucy Caroline Lyttleton). Lady Cavendish was the widow of Frederick Cavendish who was murdered in Phoenix Park in 1882. She and Spencer (her brother) had another brother named Albert that was a clergyman in Kimberley. Interesting that Kimberley is exactly where Brodie ended up. Brodie's return passage, of course, was in July of 1889, two days before the murder of Alice McKenzie. Brodie returned on the SS Trojan and worked his passage back as a fireman. He returned to his old lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. Also living at the same exact address, No. 2 Harvey's Buildings, was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame. How is that for a coincidence?

[jerryd]

To Frank, Pat and all regarding the older torso cases. Dr. Bond was involved in the 1873 torso case. He didn't link it to the later cases (1887-1889) we have discussed. Perhaps because it was an older case and he didn't remember the details or whatever. I just feel if something important stuck out to link it to the later cases, he would have mentioned it?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD.

You've brought up some interesting points in a couple of these threads. Thanks for being open minded. Some of the points you bring up I have speculated about myself. Others, I have a different point of view, but along the same line of thinking as you.

With that, I believe in more than one person involved in these cases working together. I believe the Whitehall torso was moved around also, but for a different reason and starting location. I feel the sub-basement of the Police Building or the ground within the construction fences may have been the location of the murder itself. Her clothing was scattered about the construction site. I think her skull may be buried somewhere in that ground. I think the body was moved from within the sub-basement to where it was found, so it COULD be found. The "John Arnold" type announcement coincided with Wildbore holding off finally announcing the odd package to his superiors. He was in the vault Monday morning at 6:00 a.m and said he saw what he thought was a workman's coat in that corner of the vault. He said nothing to anyone. He went back in the vault at 5:30 p.m that same evening and said he saw the parcel there and drew his mate's attention to it by lighting a wax vesta. Neither man mentioned anything to anyone at this point. The next morning, Tuesday, he was again in the vault in the morning and saw the parcel and again said nothing. Then he says at 1:00 (2:30 according to other witnesses) Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came to see him in the vault. It was then that he pointed the parcel out to Brown. To me, that's odd behavior. Some press reports state Wildbore said it had a foul odor. Most reports don't say anything about a stench. One report states the trunk appeared to have been treated by Condy's Fluid. That could mask the stench somewhat, I guess.

I believe, personally, in Dr. Neville's report and DoD. Which is sometime around the 8th or 9th of September.

Last we have the strange case of William Wallace Brodie, the self-professed murderer of Alice McKenzie who stated he was "one of the Whitechapel murderers". Take this next bit for what it's worth, but to me it means something. I just don't know what exactly?

William Wallace Brodie was released from Portland Gaol on August 22nd, 1888. He arrived at Waterloo station and took lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings, Strand. On September 5th, 1888 he reported to the convict office (as required on license) and stated his intention of leaving for Cape of Good Hope. A record check with the Union Steamship company by Sgt. E.C Bradshaw confirmed Brodie was a passenger on the Union ship, SS Athenian, leaving Southampton on September 6, 1888 as a 3rd class passenger. Surprisingly, aboard that same ship were the Hon. Spencer Lyttleton and Lady Frederick Cavendish (Lucy Caroline Lyttleton). Lady Cavendish was the widow of Frederick Cavendish who was murdered in Phoenix Park in 1882. She and Spencer (her brother) had another brother named Albert that was a clergyman in Kimberley. Interesting that Kimberley is exactly where Brodie ended up. Brodie's return passage, of course, was in July of 1889, two days before the murder of Alice McKenzie. Brodie returned on the SS Trojan and worked his passage back as a fireman. He returned to his old lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. Also living at the same exact address, No. 2 Harvey's Buildings, was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame. How is that for a coincidence?

Thank you Jerry for your exceptionally brilliant and captivating post.

I know that you are one of the leading lights in this particular area of the case, and along with Debra, have personally inspired me to delve deeper in this area due to your combined expertise.

Your knowledge of this area of the case is quite remarkable and I am grateful to you for taking the time to give me some much appreciated feedback.

I am also of the opinion that multiple men were involved.

The sighting of the 3 men seen at the location with the cart, and one of them allegedly trying to scale the structure to gain access, just days before the Torso was found, is also a potentially significant occurrence and one I feel has never really been explained.

I find your idea that the victim was killed there also very interesting, because it's not something I had personally considered.
By having murdered the woman in that location, it then reduces the reliance on the killer needing an accomplice to help move the body.

The only solitary point that I would contend is the date of death.
The date is critical when combining the Torso series with the Ripper series.
I have started a new thread which acts as a supplement to this main thread. The reason is that I wanted to focus on a particular area that looks to see the impact on the chronology of each series of murders when combined.

The 24th August date I proposed would take the Whitehall murder to before Nichols rather than afterward.

Even though it's only a couple of weeks difference, the moving the date of death to BEFORE the canonical 5 series began, becomes potentially very relevant indeed.

It supports my belief that killers can and do change their M.O. to adapt, and supports my belief that the Ripper and the Torso killed were the same man, or at the very least, 2 men working together.

There are also another reasons why I believe that the 24th August is the correct date of death.
The first is based on the fact that pieces of newspaper dated the 24th August were found with the body. I don't feel this is by chance, rather a deliberate attempt to highlight the date the woman was killed.

The other reason I won't go into just yet, bur it does support the idea that the killer was a Navvy or someone who worked as a specialist builder.

This brings it into line with the Board of Works and the building of the infrastructure.
It all ties in and I have some interesting findings relating to the 24th August that I feel are just one coincidence too many.

I know that your research into the Board of Works link is unparalleled.

Your research on Brodie is exquisite and I agree that the link to John Arnold at the same address is surely beyond coincidence.

Arnold
Brodie
Wildbore
The Ex-Police Officer

I imagine there to be others

I have always found Le Grand, Reeves, Aarons, Van Gelder, Lusk and Bachert all have interesting links to the case and at least one of them was involved.

The board of works
The newly constructed NSY building, railway lines/arches and canal ways.
The Navvy
George Lusk

These are all factors that are linked to both cases.


Lots more to ponder


RD