Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[Fiver]

That's a bit like saying that Stride was found laying facing the wall in the pitch dark, and not displayed for all to see.

Stride was found laying facing the wall and not posed like the bodies of the other Ripper victims. Which means that her killer was interrupted or that Stride wasn't killed by the Ripper.

The Pinchin Street Torso was dumped face down in a railway arch, not displayed in the street. It would have take the killer less time and effort to leave it in the street than to drag it 4 to 5 yards into the archway.

[The Rookie Detective]

Excuse the lack of in-depth torso murders’ knowledge but what are the arguments against these victims ending up in the hands of someone seeking to sell organs?

That could be a possibility, although doubtful as the victim of the Whitehall mystery had healthy organs, except for her left lung which was said to have suffered from severe pleurisy.

The only organ that I am aware of that was removed, was her uterus.

Her uterus was completely absent, but all her other organ (exluding her left lung) were healthy enough to sell, but were left with the body.


Interestingly, in his summing up of the case, the coroner stated "...the aim had been to destroy the possibility of identity, rather than to destroy the body."

RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Excuse the lack of in-depth torso murders’ knowledge but what are the arguments against these victims ending up in the hands of someone seeking to sell organs?

[FrankO]

As I understand it, the basement where the body was found was the very bottom floor. Above this, was a sub-basement. I believe the sub-basement would have been where most of the work at the time was taking place. Tools were kept in the vault in the basement. Work seems to have ended there (basement) about 3 months prior except the carpenters were working on the trench a week before.

So, back to what RJ was saying, I also believe the body/parts were being moved around. Mainly because that part of the building was somewhat finished and probably not the focus of daily work for the majority of the men. So, when the men heard the vault (where the torso was found) was due to be measured by the surveyor, they/he probably began moving stuff around. The body may have been treated with Condy's Fluid.

Very interesting stuff, Jerry. Thanks for sharing. If this is actually what happened, then it means that, whoever was responsible for killing, storing & cutting up the body, he/they had already got rid of the right arm & parts that were never found by the time the torso was discovered at the beginning of October. One odd thing would be: why wasn’t the leg discovered then and took it another two weeks to find it? Another would be: why would he/they toss the right arm in the Thames so far west/away from the Whitehall location, when the Thames was right in front of that location, less than a 100 yards away?

Last, I would like to mention another man of interest. I have spoken of him before. Richard Lawrence. He was Wildbore's mate. His address on Sterndale Road is very near Battersea Park. Just a few blocks SE of the corner of the park on that end. In the 1881 census I believe I found the correct Richard Lawrence living on Jeffrey Street which was a block or so from Camden Lock on Regents Canal. This residence was almost a direct extension of Tottenham Court Road and also near the finding of some of the Rainham Mystery remains. Finding somebody with a connection to possibly three dumpsites for torsos was intriguing. Lawrence moved sometime between 1881 and 1888 to the Battersea Park location. His testimony can be read in inquest reports.

This Lawrence fellow is also very interesting. Not only Wildbore’s mate, but also, as you say, someone to connect to possibly 3 dumpsites and moving from close to one site to another at the right time.

Cheers,
Frank

[The Rookie Detective]

"According to Mapleson, the underground passage to the Houses of Parliament (for silent members ... [to listen to] beautiful music rather than dull debates ... ) and connection into the District Railway station, together with dressing rooms for suburban visitors, were completed."
Source: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...office/g13.pdf (page 2)

In the book by Paul Begg and John Bennett:Jack the Ripper, The Forgotten Victims, they state one underground passageway led from the Opera House site into the Houses of Parliament and another (eastern side) led to a station of the district railway which was incorporated into the Scotland Yard building. According to the book, this eastern tunnel "enabled the police to move men around without bringing them onto the streets".

Ah that's brilliant!

So is there a possibility that the killer used the route from the district line train station to access the vault without needing to go above ground?

The direct and accessible link to the railway station could be important because if the killer knew about the route, then it possibly links back to the railway/navvy connection again.

RD

[jerryd]

whats your thoughts on that it was actually torsomans or men chop shop for some or all of them?

I doubt it was the chop shop for Elizabeth Jackson and Pinchin Street torso due to the fact the building was almost completed by then. Rainham is a possibility and Whitehall, of course.

[jerryd]

hi jer
some questions for you..

so just to be clear, when you mention tottenham, its in reference to the totenham head correct?
if so, then you beleive that it was from one of the victims of torso man?
was wildbore and or lawrence single?

i had previously stated that i thought it would be difficult to get a prostitute in there willingly, but in thinking about it possibly being a worker there, perhaps not. i could see it like this..hey i work there, its private, and we got booze stashed there, you wanna check it out?
whats your thoughts on that it was actually torsomans or men chop shop for some or all of them?

Hey Abs.

In reference to the Tottenham Court torso and head, yes. I shy away from including that case with the others, but I don't discount it. Lawrence's residence on Jeffrey Street is interesting in the large scope of things if it (Tottenham Court torso) is included. There has to be an explanation for how the parts of one of the victims got that far north of the Thames and the rest of her body. I can't remember the marital status of Lawrence. I'll look into it again. The interesting fact about both Lawrence and Wildbore, is that they both had fathers that committed suicide.

[Abby Normal]

Hello again, RD.

The vaults were worked on a week prior, by the carpenters.

Here is testimony from Charles Brown.

Morning Advertiser (London)
9 October 1888

What are the approaches to the vaults? - Planks laid crossways down the road. At the bottom of the planks it is very dark. The floors and drains have to be laid in the vaults yet. The carpenters were at work in them a week before the remains were found.

Again, from Charles Brown,

How long is it since the vaults referred to have been completed? - About three months.

As I understand it, the basement where the body was found was the very bottom floor. Above this, was a sub-basement. I believe the sub-basement would have been where most of the work at the time was taking place. Tools were kept in the vault in the basement. Work seems to have ended there (basement) about 3 months prior except the carpenters were working on the trench a week before.

So, back to what RJ was saying, I also believe the body/parts were being moved around. Mainly because that part of the building was somewhat finished and probably not the focus of daily work for the majority of the men. So, when the men heard the vault (where the torso was found) was due to be measured by the surveyor, they/he probably began moving stuff around. The body may have been treated with Condy's Fluid.

The Daily Telegraph
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1888

The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid.

If that's the case, it would explain how many of the men stated there was no smell about. If the body was stored in the vault, I can see how someone might be able to "plentifully" sprinkle it with antiseptic to mask the smell. Possibly on a daily basis.

Last, I would like to mention another man of interest. I have spoken of him before. Richard Lawrence. He was Wildbore's mate. His address on Sterndale Road is very near Battersea Park. Just a few blocks SE of the corner of the park on that end. In the 1881 census I believe I found the correct Richard Lawrence living on Jeffrey Street which was a block or so from Camden Lock on Regents Canal. This residence was almost a direct extension of Tottenham Court Road and also near the finding of some of the Rainham Mystery remains. Finding somebody with a connection to possibly three dumpsites for torsos was intriguing. Lawrence moved sometime between 1881 and 1888 to the Battersea Park location. His testimony can be read in inquest reports.

hi jer
some questions for you..

so just to be clear, when you mention tottenham, its in reference to the totenham head correct?
if so, then you beleive that it was from one of the victims of torso man?
was wildbore and or lawrence single?

i had previously stated that i thought it would be difficult to get a prostitute in there willingly, but in thinking about it possibly being a worker there, perhaps not. i could see it like this..hey i work there, its private, and we got booze stashed there, you wanna check it out?
whats your thoughts on that it was actually torsomans or men chop shop for some or all of them?

[jerryd]

if the whitehall victim was killed and dismembered on site it points even more stronger to a worker there like wildbore.
I could see it perhaps not be too difficult to lure a drunk prostitute there for many reasons: the excitement of it, privacy, a ruse of stashed liquor. tjeres tools already there correct? perhaps the cutting instruments are already in place. could this actually be torsomans chop shop for some or all of the other torso victims?

question: was wildbore married at the time? or did he live alone?

He was married with children, Abby.

[jerryd]

It;s also important to remember that prior to becoming a Police building, the site was a former site for an Opera House that never came to be...but by the time of of the NSY build, the foundations of the previous building were already in place.
The original schematics for the site included a walk way to the train station and a corridor straight to the parliament building.
Now IF those corridors were indeed constructed, then the killer MAY have transported the body via the train line...which again links back to the Railway.

I have no idea whether those underground corridors linking to the train station were built, but I would assume that some work must have been done on them because the former plan for the Opera House were so close to becoming reality.

RD

"According to Mapleson, the underground passage to the Houses of Parliament (for silent members ... [to listen to] beautiful music rather than dull debates ... ) and connection into the District Railway station, together with dressing rooms for suburban visitors, were completed."
Source: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...office/g13.pdf (page 2)

In the book by Paul Begg and John Bennett:Jack the Ripper, The Forgotten Victims, they state one underground passageway led from the Opera House site into the Houses of Parliament and another (eastern side) led to a station of the district railway which was incorporated into the Scotland Yard building. According to the book, this eastern tunnel "enabled the police to move men around without bringing them onto the streets".

[jerryd]

And so in terms of my belief the killer was a Navvy, who worked on many civil engineering and large-scale non-domestic building contracts, hypothetically speaking, he may have also been involved with the sewage works/construction of the water/sewage system.
I say this because the fact that the Whitehall torso was discovered next to the new sewer pipe may also be important.

RD

Hello again, RD.

The vaults were worked on a week prior, by the carpenters.

Here is testimony from Charles Brown.

Morning Advertiser (London)
9 October 1888

What are the approaches to the vaults? - Planks laid crossways down the road. At the bottom of the planks it is very dark. The floors and drains have to be laid in the vaults yet. The carpenters were at work in them a week before the remains were found.

Again, from Charles Brown,

How long is it since the vaults referred to have been completed? - About three months.

As I understand it, the basement where the body was found was the very bottom floor. Above this, was a sub-basement. I believe the sub-basement would have been where most of the work at the time was taking place. Tools were kept in the vault in the basement. Work seems to have ended there (basement) about 3 months prior except the carpenters were working on the trench a week before.

So, back to what RJ was saying, I also believe the body/parts were being moved around. Mainly because that part of the building was somewhat finished and probably not the focus of daily work for the majority of the men. So, when the men heard the vault (where the torso was found) was due to be measured by the surveyor, they/he probably began moving stuff around. The body may have been treated with Condy's Fluid.

The Daily Telegraph
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1888

The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid.

If that's the case, it would explain how many of the men stated there was no smell about. If the body was stored in the vault, I can see how someone might be able to "plentifully" sprinkle it with antiseptic to mask the smell. Possibly on a daily basis.

Last, I would like to mention another man of interest. I have spoken of him before. Richard Lawrence. He was Wildbore's mate. His address on Sterndale Road is very near Battersea Park. Just a few blocks SE of the corner of the park on that end. In the 1881 census I believe I found the correct Richard Lawrence living on Jeffrey Street which was a block or so from Camden Lock on Regents Canal. This residence was almost a direct extension of Tottenham Court Road and also near the finding of some of the Rainham Mystery remains. Finding somebody with a connection to possibly three dumpsites for torsos was intriguing. Lawrence moved sometime between 1881 and 1888 to the Battersea Park location. His testimony can be read in inquest reports.

[Pcdunn]

There you go. George "Toppy" Hutchinson, a plumber.

I'll have to have a refresher on him. Thanks!

[rjpalmer]

This is amazing. Jack the Ripper has in speculation fallen from royal lineage to being a builder, mason, navvy, and now-- a plumber?!

There you go. George "Toppy" Hutchinson, a plumber.

[The Rookie Detective]

The Pinchin Street Torso was dumped face down in a railway arch, not displayed in the street.

That's a bit like saying that Stride was found laying facing the wall in the pitch dark, and not displayed for all to see.

The sheer fact that a body is left out in the open; whether under a railway arch, or on the pavement, by proxy confirms an element of display of the killers work.

"The Pinchin Street torso was dumped face down under a railway arch, outside in the open and displayed for all to see."


That is a more accurate and objective summary.

RD

[Fiver]

hi el
nichols and mackenzie both had the vertical gash down the midsection like some of the torsos. both were same victimology and mckenzie was killed around the same time as pinchin, both were left displayed in a public street like pinchin.

The Pinchin Street Torso was dumped face down in a railway arch, not displayed in the street.