Jack the Ripper & The Torso Murders

[Elamarna]

hi el
nichols and mackenzie both had the vertical gash down the midsection like some of the torsos. both were same victimology and mckenzie was killed around the same time as pinchin, both were left displayed in a public street like pinchin.

Abby, happy New year, if I have not already said so. I find those tenuous links at best.

Apart from Pinchin, no other of the Torsos are left on public display, and I am still far from convinced that all the mid 1880s Torso cases are connected, although some may well be.
The gap of two months between AC and Pinchin street is for me simply insignificant

The wound to McKenzie is much shorter and less extentive than in Nichols, which is why some dismiss her as a victim, I do not.

The vertical cut is for a clear purpose in the Ripper victims, that is to gain entry into the body cavity.
Such is not at all clear in the Torso cases, and may simply be a byproduct of the dismembering process.

In all honest, I have yet to see any solid evidence that links the two series. Lots or debates about would you have two killers working in the then largest city in the world overlapping ? And I dont see how we can exclude the possibility. And debates based on profiling, which I don't hold in the same regard as some others.

In short, I simply do not see a real tangible connection between the torso cases and Nichols, but I do understand RD's reasoning for attempting to linking it, the railway construction. I don't even see that for Alice

Steve

[The Rookie Detective]

Abby, happy New year, if I have not already said so. I find those tenuous links at best.

Apart from Pinchin, no other of the Torsos are left on public display, and I am still far from convinced that all the mid 1880s Torso cases are connected, although some may well be.
The gap of two months between AC and Pinchin street is for me simply insignificant

The wound to McKenzie is much shorter and less extentive than in Nichols, which is why some dismiss her as a victim, I do not.

The vertical cut is for a clear purpose in the Ripper victims, that is to gain entry into the body cavity.
Such is not at all clear in the Torso cases, and may simply be a byproduct of the dismembering process.

In all honest, I have yet to see any solid evidence that links the two series. Lots or debates about would you have two killers working in the then largest city in the world overlapping ? And I dont see how we can exclude the possibility. And debates based on profiling, which I don't hold in the same regard as some others.

In short, I simply do not see a real tangible connection between the torso cases and Nichols, but I do understand RD's reasoning for attempting to linking it, the railway construction. I don't even see that for Alice

Steve

There is another important aspect that may have been overlooked.

1888 was a notoriously bad year for extreme weather conditions, and vast areas of the country suffered widespread flooding.

In 1888 there was a considerable amount of work that needed to be carried out on the Railway Infrastructure; but not just in terms of building, but also in terms of repairing damaged areas of the Railway network that had suffered from severe flooding.

It is a fact that much of the railway system in London suffered considerable delays and need for repairs, due to the weather being particularly extreme at the time.

The weather was reported on again and again and so the fact that the railway infrastructure struggled to cope at the time, is therefore well-documented.

This required scores of Navvies and specialist builders to work on repairing and securing the railway infrastructure that had been impacted by the severe weather.

The persistent flooding also impacted the canal-ways and the rivers.

And so in terms of my belief the killer was a Navvy, who worked on many civil engineering and large-scale non-domestic building contracts, hypothetically speaking, he may have also been involved with the sewage works/construction of the water/sewage system.
I say this because the fact that the Whitehall torso was discovered next to the new sewer pipe may also be important.

What better way of knowing how to safely "navigate" the potentially hazardous trench and sewage pipe in the vault, than being one of the men who built it.

There is another quite tantalizing clue regarding the Lambeth 1902 torso... the torso and body parts were piled up with the head resting on top directly outside the back of the Doultons factory.

When we think of Doultons, we think of Royal Doulton; (which the company would eventually become) and we also consider them to be specialists in fine items ranging form tableware and cookware, to linen and curtains.

However, at the heart of Doultons at the time of the Torso/Ripper case, wasn't the same as what it is today.

At the time the company specialized in items that were made from...STONE

And so I believe that the 1902 Lambeth Torso case can be linked to the Pinchin Street Torso by the link to Stonemasonry/building.

The Lambeth and Pinchin St cases can then also be linked to the Whitehall torso through the same concept...because what else did Doultons of Lambeth also specialize in?...

They also specialized in making taps, pipes, toilets, and various other utility items.

This would have included pipes for water waste.


Was the Torso killer giving us clues the entire time?


Whitehall torso - discovered in a vault next to a recently constructed cellar and sewage pipe
Elizabeth Jackson - seen by multiple witnesses as having been seen talking with a Navvy
Pinchin Street Torso - Dumped next to the Stone breaking yard owned by the board of works

Kelly - murdered yards from a working Tap that was used...and maintained...outside her window.
Stride - murdered yards away from the toilet situated in Dutfields yard
Chapman - murdered yards away from the outside toilet

What if the killer was a man who worked as a specialist builder, working in stone masonry and building, and a Navvy sub-contracted by the Board of Works.
And could this have extended to working on the piping of sewage system?

Due to the flooding, was he able to pass unnoticed as the local handyman, who when out of work for the board of works, spent his time fixing pipes, taps and toilets and such like?

And had he worked for Doultons, who supplied pipes, taps, and various other stoneware products like Bed pans...ones similar to the pot found under Kelly's bed.

Did the killer use the sewer system to deposit body parts from his victims into the Thames?

Has anyone in the history of Ripperology ever considered that the man who serviced the tap outside Kelly's bedroom, and the man who may have built the toilet in Dutfields yard, may have been the torso killer and therefore the Ripper as well?

Doultons incidentally sourced their stone from various areas, primarily from a quarry in Birmingham.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the torso victims weren't from the West Midlands area...just like one of the Ripper victims was.

The stone was transferred from the quarry to London by the Canalways that ran into London, and possibly the railway was used too.

I know that some are very skeptical, but I believe that I am the first person to ever suggest that it was the man who fixed the toilet that could have been the killer?

I may be wrong, but I do love to test the water as it were.


RD

[Abby Normal]

Abby, happy New year, if I have not already said so. I find those tenuous links at best.

Apart from Pinchin, no other of the Torsos are left on public display, and I am still far from convinced that all the mid 1880s Torso cases are connected, although some may well be.
The gap of two months between AC and Pinchin street is for me simply insignificant

The wound to McKenzie is much shorter and less extentive than in Nichols, which is why some dismiss her as a victim, I do not.

The vertical cut is for a clear purpose in the Ripper victims, that is to gain entry into the body cavity.
Such is not at all clear in the Torso cases, and may simply be a byproduct of the dismembering process.

In all honest, I have yet to see any solid evidence that links the two series. Lots or debates about would you have two killers working in the then largest city in the world overlapping ? And I dont see how we can exclude the possibility. And debates based on profiling, which I don't hold in the same regard as some others.

In short, I simply do not see a real tangible connection between the torso cases and Nichols, but I do understand RD's reasoning for attempting to linking it, the railway construction. I don't even see that for Alice

Steve

Hi El
happy new year to you too! We see things a little differently no big wup!

[Elamarna]

There is another important aspect that may have been overlooked.

1888 was a notoriously bad year for extreme weather conditions, and vast areas of the country suffered widespread flooding.

In 1888 there was a considerable amount of work that needed to be carried out on the Railway Infrastructure; but not just in terms of building, but also in terms of repairing damaged areas of the Railway network that had suffered from severe flooding.

It is a fact that much of the railway system in London suffered considerable delays and need for repairs, due to the weather being particularly extreme at the time.

The weather was reported on again and again and so the fact that the railway infrastructure struggled to cope at the time, is therefore well-documented.

This required scores of Navvies and specialist builders to work on repairing and securing the railway infrastructure that had been impacted by the severe weather.

The persistent flooding also impacted the canal-ways and the rivers.

And so in terms of my belief the killer was a Navvy, who worked on many civil engineering and large-scale non-domestic building contracts, hypothetically speaking, he may have also been involved with the sewage works/construction of the water/sewage system.
I say this because the fact that the Whitehall torso was discovered next to the new sewer pipe may also be important.

What better way of knowing how to safely "navigate" the potentially hazardous trench and sewage pipe in the vault, than being one of the men who built it.

There is another quite tantalizing clue regarding the Lambeth 1902 torso... the torso and body parts were piled up with the head resting on top directly outside the back of the Doultons factory.

When we think of Doultons, we think of Royal Doulton; (which the company would eventually become) and we also consider them to be specialists in fine items ranging form tableware and cookware, to linen and curtains.

However, at the heart of Doultons at the time of the Torso/Ripper case, wasn't the same as what it is today.

At the time the company specialized in items that were made from...STONE

And so I believe that the 1902 Lambeth Torso case can be linked to the Pinchin Street Torso by the link to Stonemasonry/building.

The Lambeth and Pinchin St cases can then also be linked to the Whitehall torso through the same concept...because what else did Doultons of Lambeth also specialize in?...

They also specialized in making taps, pipes, toilets, and various other utility items.

This would have included pipes for water waste.


Was the Torso killer giving us clues the entire time?


Whitehall torso - discovered in a vault next to a recently constructed cellar and sewage pipe
Elizabeth Jackson - seen by multiple witnesses as having been seen talking with a Navvy
Pinchin Street Torso - Dumped next to the Stone breaking yard owned by the board of works

Kelly - murdered yards from a working Tap that was used...and maintained...outside her window.
Stride - murdered yards away from the toilet situated in Dutfields yard
Chapman - murdered yards away from the outside toilet

What if the killer was a man who worked as a specialist builder, working in stone masonry and building, and a Navvy sub-contracted by the Board of Works.
And could this have extended to working on the piping of sewage system?

Due to the flooding, was he able to pass unnoticed as the local handyman, who when out of work for the board of works, spent his time fixing pipes, taps and toilets and such like?

And had he worked for Doultons, who supplied pipes, taps, and various other stoneware products like Bed pans...ones similar to the pot found under Kelly's bed.

Did the killer use the sewer system to deposit body parts from his victims into the Thames?

Has anyone in the history of Ripperology ever considered that the man who serviced the tap outside Kelly's bedroom, and the man who may have built the toilet in Dutfields yard, may have been the torso killer and therefore the Ripper as well?

Doultons incidentally sourced their stone from various areas, primarily from a quarry in Birmingham.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the torso victims weren't from the West Midlands area...just like one of the Ripper victims was.

The stone was transferred from the quarry to London by the Canalways that ran into London, and possibly the railway was used too.

I know that some are very skeptical, but I believe that I am the first person to ever suggest that it was the man who fixed the toilet that could have been the killer?

I may be wrong, but I do love to test the water as it were.


RD

This looks like a classic example of having an idea, that being Torso man was a navvy. And then attempting to find any repair or construction work in the London area, so as to form a link of sorts.

Being a Navvy, is a fair suggestion, I would actually be more inclined to those actually working on the waterways myself, rather than building them.
However, such relies on a single person or group of people being responsible for all the Torso cases from 73-02. And I have yet to see real evidence of that .

I am afraid I don't buy the reasoning over the 02 case and Doltons, I find it unrealistic RD.

However, I too suspect that some of the Torso cases may have come from outside London, but I suspect for very different reasons to yourself.

Not content with all the Torsos from 73-02, attempting to add in the JTR vitims , via, toilets and taps, seriously ???

Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi El
happy new year to you too! We see things a little differently no big wup!

Completely agree.

[Pcdunn]

This looks like a classic example of having an idea, that being Torso man was a navvy. And then attempting to find any repair or construction work in the London area, so as to form a link of sorts.

Being a Navvy, is a fair suggestion, I would actually be more inclined to those actually working on the waterways myself, rather than building them.
However, such relies on a single person or group of people being responsible for all the Torso cases from 73-02. And I have yet to see real evidence of that .

I am afraid I don't buy the reasoning over the 02 case and Doltons, I find it unrealistic RD.

However, I too suspect that some of the Torso cases may have come from outside London, but I suspect for very different reasons to yourself.

Not content with all the Torsos from 73-02, attempting to add in the JTR vitims , via, toilets and taps, seriously ???

Steve

This is amazing. Jack the Ripper has in speculation fallen from royal lineage to being a builder, mason, navvy, and now-- a plumber?!

[Fiver]

hi el
nichols and mackenzie both had the vertical gash down the midsection like some of the torsos. both were same victimology and mckenzie was killed around the same time as pinchin, both were left displayed in a public street like pinchin.

The Pinchin Street Torso was dumped face down in a railway arch, not displayed in the street.

[The Rookie Detective]

The Pinchin Street Torso was dumped face down in a railway arch, not displayed in the street.

That's a bit like saying that Stride was found laying facing the wall in the pitch dark, and not displayed for all to see.

The sheer fact that a body is left out in the open; whether under a railway arch, or on the pavement, by proxy confirms an element of display of the killers work.

"The Pinchin Street torso was dumped face down under a railway arch, outside in the open and displayed for all to see."


That is a more accurate and objective summary.

RD

[rjpalmer]

This is amazing. Jack the Ripper has in speculation fallen from royal lineage to being a builder, mason, navvy, and now-- a plumber?!

There you go. George "Toppy" Hutchinson, a plumber.

[Pcdunn]

There you go. George "Toppy" Hutchinson, a plumber.

I'll have to have a refresher on him. Thanks!

[jerryd]

And so in terms of my belief the killer was a Navvy, who worked on many civil engineering and large-scale non-domestic building contracts, hypothetically speaking, he may have also been involved with the sewage works/construction of the water/sewage system.
I say this because the fact that the Whitehall torso was discovered next to the new sewer pipe may also be important.

RD

Hello again, RD.

The vaults were worked on a week prior, by the carpenters.

Here is testimony from Charles Brown.

Morning Advertiser (London)
9 October 1888

What are the approaches to the vaults? - Planks laid crossways down the road. At the bottom of the planks it is very dark. The floors and drains have to be laid in the vaults yet. The carpenters were at work in them a week before the remains were found.

Again, from Charles Brown,

How long is it since the vaults referred to have been completed? - About three months.

As I understand it, the basement where the body was found was the very bottom floor. Above this, was a sub-basement. I believe the sub-basement would have been where most of the work at the time was taking place. Tools were kept in the vault in the basement. Work seems to have ended there (basement) about 3 months prior except the carpenters were working on the trench a week before.

So, back to what RJ was saying, I also believe the body/parts were being moved around. Mainly because that part of the building was somewhat finished and probably not the focus of daily work for the majority of the men. So, when the men heard the vault (where the torso was found) was due to be measured by the surveyor, they/he probably began moving stuff around. The body may have been treated with Condy's Fluid.

The Daily Telegraph
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1888

The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid.

If that's the case, it would explain how many of the men stated there was no smell about. If the body was stored in the vault, I can see how someone might be able to "plentifully" sprinkle it with antiseptic to mask the smell. Possibly on a daily basis.

Last, I would like to mention another man of interest. I have spoken of him before. Richard Lawrence. He was Wildbore's mate. His address on Sterndale Road is very near Battersea Park. Just a few blocks SE of the corner of the park on that end. In the 1881 census I believe I found the correct Richard Lawrence living on Jeffrey Street which was a block or so from Camden Lock on Regents Canal. This residence was almost a direct extension of Tottenham Court Road and also near the finding of some of the Rainham Mystery remains. Finding somebody with a connection to possibly three dumpsites for torsos was intriguing. Lawrence moved sometime between 1881 and 1888 to the Battersea Park location. His testimony can be read in inquest reports.

[jerryd]

It;s also important to remember that prior to becoming a Police building, the site was a former site for an Opera House that never came to be...but by the time of of the NSY build, the foundations of the previous building were already in place.
The original schematics for the site included a walk way to the train station and a corridor straight to the parliament building.
Now IF those corridors were indeed constructed, then the killer MAY have transported the body via the train line...which again links back to the Railway.

I have no idea whether those underground corridors linking to the train station were built, but I would assume that some work must have been done on them because the former plan for the Opera House were so close to becoming reality.

RD

"According to Mapleson, the underground passage to the Houses of Parliament (for silent members ... [to listen to] beautiful music rather than dull debates ... ) and connection into the District Railway station, together with dressing rooms for suburban visitors, were completed."
Source: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...office/g13.pdf (page 2)

In the book by Paul Begg and John Bennett:Jack the Ripper, The Forgotten Victims, they state one underground passageway led from the Opera House site into the Houses of Parliament and another (eastern side) led to a station of the district railway which was incorporated into the Scotland Yard building. According to the book, this eastern tunnel "enabled the police to move men around without bringing them onto the streets".

[jerryd]

if the whitehall victim was killed and dismembered on site it points even more stronger to a worker there like wildbore.
I could see it perhaps not be too difficult to lure a drunk prostitute there for many reasons: the excitement of it, privacy, a ruse of stashed liquor. tjeres tools already there correct? perhaps the cutting instruments are already in place. could this actually be torsomans chop shop for some or all of the other torso victims?

question: was wildbore married at the time? or did he live alone?

He was married with children, Abby.

[Abby Normal]

Hello again, RD.

The vaults were worked on a week prior, by the carpenters.

Here is testimony from Charles Brown.

Morning Advertiser (London)
9 October 1888

What are the approaches to the vaults? - Planks laid crossways down the road. At the bottom of the planks it is very dark. The floors and drains have to be laid in the vaults yet. The carpenters were at work in them a week before the remains were found.

Again, from Charles Brown,

How long is it since the vaults referred to have been completed? - About three months.

As I understand it, the basement where the body was found was the very bottom floor. Above this, was a sub-basement. I believe the sub-basement would have been where most of the work at the time was taking place. Tools were kept in the vault in the basement. Work seems to have ended there (basement) about 3 months prior except the carpenters were working on the trench a week before.

So, back to what RJ was saying, I also believe the body/parts were being moved around. Mainly because that part of the building was somewhat finished and probably not the focus of daily work for the majority of the men. So, when the men heard the vault (where the torso was found) was due to be measured by the surveyor, they/he probably began moving stuff around. The body may have been treated with Condy's Fluid.

The Daily Telegraph
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1888

The flesh had a dark reddish hue, as if it had been plentifully sprinkled with antiseptic, such as Condy's fluid.

If that's the case, it would explain how many of the men stated there was no smell about. If the body was stored in the vault, I can see how someone might be able to "plentifully" sprinkle it with antiseptic to mask the smell. Possibly on a daily basis.

Last, I would like to mention another man of interest. I have spoken of him before. Richard Lawrence. He was Wildbore's mate. His address on Sterndale Road is very near Battersea Park. Just a few blocks SE of the corner of the park on that end. In the 1881 census I believe I found the correct Richard Lawrence living on Jeffrey Street which was a block or so from Camden Lock on Regents Canal. This residence was almost a direct extension of Tottenham Court Road and also near the finding of some of the Rainham Mystery remains. Finding somebody with a connection to possibly three dumpsites for torsos was intriguing. Lawrence moved sometime between 1881 and 1888 to the Battersea Park location. His testimony can be read in inquest reports.

hi jer
some questions for you..

so just to be clear, when you mention tottenham, its in reference to the totenham head correct?
if so, then you beleive that it was from one of the victims of torso man?
was wildbore and or lawrence single?

i had previously stated that i thought it would be difficult to get a prostitute in there willingly, but in thinking about it possibly being a worker there, perhaps not. i could see it like this..hey i work there, its private, and we got booze stashed there, you wanna check it out?
whats your thoughts on that it was actually torsomans or men chop shop for some or all of them?

[jerryd]

hi jer
some questions for you..

so just to be clear, when you mention tottenham, its in reference to the totenham head correct?
if so, then you beleive that it was from one of the victims of torso man?
was wildbore and or lawrence single?

i had previously stated that i thought it would be difficult to get a prostitute in there willingly, but in thinking about it possibly being a worker there, perhaps not. i could see it like this..hey i work there, its private, and we got booze stashed there, you wanna check it out?
whats your thoughts on that it was actually torsomans or men chop shop for some or all of them?

Hey Abs.

In reference to the Tottenham Court torso and head, yes. I shy away from including that case with the others, but I don't discount it. Lawrence's residence on Jeffrey Street is interesting in the large scope of things if it (Tottenham Court torso) is included. There has to be an explanation for how the parts of one of the victims got that far north of the Thames and the rest of her body. I can't remember the marital status of Lawrence. I'll look into it again. The interesting fact about both Lawrence and Wildbore, is that they both had fathers that committed suicide.