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  • Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by New Ford Shunt View Post
    Charlie
    I've trawled the British newspapers and these are the torso cases I've found outside of the UK between 1850 and 1900. They don't include cases of mass dismemberment such as massacres or war-related atrocities.
    Two things should be borne in mind when looking at the list. Firstly, it's very difficult to accurately locate all cases when you are dealing with a search which includes the word 'dismemberment'. This is used in the English language at the time in terms of dismembering a country due to war, or dismembering the British Empire. Therefore I'm sure I've undoubtedly missed some cases. Secondly, the list is based on newspaper reporting so the names, locations etc. may well be incorrect.
    Interestingly, on the cases where we do know a motive, the bodies have been dismembered for disposal purposes, I don't think I've read of one case where there's a homicidal maniac cutting people into pieces and putting them on display - that's not to say there aren't cases like that of course. Anyway, here you go:

    Hello NFS,

    Forgive my lack of response, but the weather in Paris is dreadful, and I've caught a severe cold.
    Congratulations on your chart; it provides a synoptic view of various cases of dismemberment in Europe. In France, during the 19th century, the term "démembrement" was preferred over "dépeçage".
    I'm not sure if you consulted Alexandre Lacassagne's works for your chart, but I want to inform you that he and his followers attempted to create a list similar to yours. You can find two versions:
    • One created in 1888 (excluding the Whitechapel crimes that had not yet occurred).
    • The other, an update of the first, done in 1902 (including the Whitechapel crimes).

    Here are the references:
    P. 229 and following: "Du dépeçage criminel" by Alexandre Lacassagne (Chart on p. 240-247)


    P. 241 and following: Synoptic chart of criminal dismemberments from 1888 to 1902 (by A. de Saint-Vincent de Parois)

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    I believe I have just discovered something rather significant regarding a potential connection between the Paris Torso murder of 1910...with someone implicated as a person of interest in the Whitechapel murders.

    Because this thread is solely a discussion on the PARIS torso murders, I will respectfully move my new found data onto a new thread so as not to deviate from the topic of this thread.

    I believe I have discovered something that to the best of my knowledge has not been discovered before... and so after I submit my findings, your collective minds, opinions, and expertise will be much appreciated.

    RD
    Hi RD
    I hope you will place a link to your findings here. I have terrible trouble finding new posts on Casebook, especially those that appear in threads that have no title on the main menu, which includes the Paris torso thread and the torso/ripper link thread. I never had these kinds of problems navigating Casebook until a couple of years ago, now I find it a nightmare. I know I'm getting older but I'm not completely senile yet but I feel it whenever I visit Casebook!

    …apologies for going off topic but it's not really off topic because it concerns how many people can easily access these posts I guess...gawd I AM old, I'm rambling on now.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post

    RD,

    Don't get too imaginative in regard to the "red hands"; I think it likely refers to reddened skin from hard work with soap and water, or chemicals like lye. It might also refer to sun reddened hands. The murderer was posing as a Corsician laundryman, which does suggest contact with hot water, and lyesoap.

    Ferdinand had been transported to a prison colony, before escaping back to France. It's likely that work and weather conditions there left him with "ugly red hands", according to the witness.
    Ah yes, I agree.

    I do get carried away sometimes ha ha!

    Thank you for your comments and feedback, very much appreciated.


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Pcdunn
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    For the 1910 Paris Torso Murder, the man who confessed; Charles Ferdinand, was living under the false name of Vincenzini and played the part of a Corsican Laundryman. He was in fact an escaped convict named Charles Ferdinand who had been deported, but who had escaped and had secretly returned to Paris.

    He was only caught after a "latch Key" belonging to the victim's room, was found in his draw inside his room.

    The killer kept the key in his drawer as a trophy, but the police found it

    (Reminiscent perhaps of Kelly's lost room key...that mysteriously reappeared)

    Elisa Vandamme was a prostitute, who the killer claimed had gone back to his room, but who had died naturally.

    A witness who saw her talking with a man the night before she was murdered, described the man as...

    A man with a slight dark mustache and "ugly red hands" who wore a dark overcoat with the collar turned up.

    The ugly red hands is rather odd.

    red paint?

    red INK?

    Some of the RED STUFF perhaps?


    After killing her in his room, he chose to cut and dismember her and then placed various body parts in various places.

    Her head was said to have been found rolled up in a piece of paper in a doorway and parts of her dismembered torso were found on waste ground in multiple locations.



    The question is... Did Charles Ferdinand murder other prostitutes?

    Did he murder the women in 1892 and 1886 in Paris?

    And did he visit London at any point?


    Lots to ponder

    RD
    RD,

    Don't get too imaginative in regard to the "red hands"; I think it likely refers to reddened skin from hard work with soap and water, or chemicals like lye. It might also refer to sun reddened hands. The murderer was posing as a Corsician laundryman, which does suggest contact with hot water, and lyesoap.

    Ferdinand had been transported to a prison colony, before escaping back to France. It's likely that work and weather conditions there left him with "ugly red hands", according to the witness.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pcdunn
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    Click image for larger version Name:	Edinburgh_Evening_News_06_May_1910_0004_Clip (1).jpg Views:	0 Size:	186.3 KB ID:	828971

    The 1910 Paris Torso killer...

    But crucially it says...

    "An OLD convict"

    BUT then states he was 28?!

    These 2 details do not match and I believe the age of 28 is incorrect.

    How can an OLD convict be only 28?

    If he was indeed 28, then he couldn't have been the Paris Torso killer in almost the same location 18 years prior in 1892.

    However, if he was an OLD convict and the age of 28 is a misprint, then he could have been the Paris Torso killer of 1892 also.

    Thoughts please?


    RD
    I noticed that too. I think maybe they meant he'd been arrested and/or to prison before, not that he himself was "old". An "old convict" might have been their equivalent of modern television detectives remarking someone has a "long record" (U.S.) or "jacket" (U.K.).

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    I believe I have just discovered something rather significant regarding a potential connection between the Paris Torso murder of 1910...with someone implicated as a person of interest in the Whitechapel murders.

    Because this thread is solely a discussion on the PARIS torso murders, I will respectfully move my new found data onto a new thread so as not to deviate from the topic of this thread.

    I believe I have discovered something that to the best of my knowledge has not been discovered before... and so after I submit my findings, your collective minds, opinions, and expertise will be much appreciated.

    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    For the 1910 Paris Torso Murder, the man who confessed; Charles Ferdinand, was living under the false name of Vincenzini and played the part of a Corsican Laundryman. He was in fact an escaped convict named Charles Ferdinand who had been deported, but who had escaped and had secretly returned to Paris.

    He was only caught after a "latch Key" belonging to the victim's room, was found in his draw inside his room.

    The killer kept the key in his drawer as a trophy, but the police found it

    (Reminiscent perhaps of Kelly's lost room key...that mysteriously reappeared)

    Elisa Vandamme was a prostitute, who the killer claimed had gone back to his room, but who had died naturally.

    A witness who saw her talking with a man the night before she was murdered, described the man as...

    A man with a slight dark mustache and "ugly red hands" who wore a dark overcoat with the collar turned up.

    The ugly red hands is rather odd.

    red paint?

    red INK?

    Some of the RED STUFF perhaps?


    After killing her in his room, he chose to cut and dismember her and then placed various body parts in various places.

    Her head was said to have been found rolled up in a piece of paper in a doorway and parts of her dismembered torso were found on waste ground in multiple locations.



    The question is... Did Charles Ferdinand murder other prostitutes?

    Did he murder the women in 1892 and 1886 in Paris?

    And did he visit London at any point?


    Lots to ponder

    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Daily_News_06_May_1910_0005_Clip (1).jpg Views:	0 Size:	191.4 KB ID:	828981

    Ferdinand the 1910 Paris Torso killer was also called "Vinenzini" or Vincenzini.

    RD
    Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 01-16-2024, 01:39 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • New Ford Shunt
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

    Excellent post NFS!

    I have a query regarding the data listed for the 1892 Rue Botzaris murder; the data in the table lists the crime as solved, and that the killer was a man named "Lestevance."


    Charlie, I thought that the Rue Botzaris crime was one of the 2 unsolved dismemberment murders that you have linked together on this thread.
    Are you able to corroborate any of the recent data that NFS has posted?

    Lestevance was one of the most violent indivdiuals; having claimed while "intoxicated" that he was the man who dismembered the victim in Rue Botzaris.

    He was suspected of attempting to murder at least 15 women in Paris over the course of just a few months in 1892.


    But what's interesting about him, is that he was from Brittany

    He spoke fluent English, French and Spanish.

    He once shot a woman twice and threw her out a window.

    He also ripped out hair, smashed teeth and inflicted brutal punishments on his victims.


    There are many reports on him in the English press but I had no idea that he was linked to the Botzaris torso murder.


    This is significant because IF he was the killer in 1892, and he is linked by proxy to the 1886 murder in montrouge, then how does this potentially impact on him being a torso killer suspect in areas outside of Paris?

    Was Lestvance convicted of the Rue Boztaris murder?


    RD

    Hi RD,

    Good spot. Looks like the majority of newspapers believed Lestevance was a 'homicidal maniac' (their terminology) and the police were investigating whether he was responsible for the Botzaris torso but there the trail goes cold. I would imagine that they concluded he wasn't responsible as I think we'd have heard something about it. Could be wrong. I'll amend the spreadsheet.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    What's interesting about the Rue Botzaris murder of 1892 is that the torso was found in an "unfinished house" at number 76.

    It proves that the house itself was either being constructed, demolished, renovated or rebuilt.

    The term "unfinished" sounds like it was a house in the process of being constructed....

    If only there were other sites (in other countries other than France) where torsos were found either IN or NEAR newly constructed sites...

    Whitehall...
    Pinchin St Railway Arch...

    Once again, the link with CONSTRUCTION is there for all to see.

    The Paris Torso killer/s and those murders committed in London are far too similar to dismiss a connection.


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Click image for larger version

Name:	Civil__Military_Gazette_Lahore_26_May_1910_0006_Clip.jpg
Views:	182
Size:	261.5 KB
ID:	828973

    Ferdinand, the Paris Torso killer of 1910; murdered an unfortunate in a room and then dismembered her, but dared to claim she died naturally.

    A prime example of a psychopath right there.

    Was he also the Paris Torso killer in 1892? and 1886?


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Edinburgh_Evening_News_06_May_1910_0004_Clip (1).jpg Views:	0 Size:	186.3 KB ID:	828971

    The 1910 Paris Torso killer...

    But crucially it says...

    "An OLD convict"

    BUT then states he was 28?!

    These 2 details do not match and I believe the age of 28 is incorrect.

    How can an OLD convict be only 28?

    If he was indeed 28, then he couldn't have been the Paris Torso killer in almost the same location 18 years prior in 1892.

    However, if he was an OLD convict and the age of 28 is a misprint, then he could have been the Paris Torso killer of 1892 also.

    Thoughts please?


    RD
    Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 01-16-2024, 11:29 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    There was also another Paris Torso murder in Rue Botzaris in 1910.

    The victim; a woman named Elisa Vandamme

    A man named Ferdinand confessed to her murder.

    The location and application of the dismemberment bear similarities to the 1892 case.


    Charlie, what are your views on the 1910 case, and could they be linked?

    Note that Ferdinand kept the head separate and SECLUDED, and disposed of the various parts of the dismembered torso in the CANAL and SEWERS.


    This is reminiscent of the Torso killings in London.


    Ferdinand appears to be the Paris Torso killer of 1910...but was he the same killer in the Paris 1892 case?


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Retford_and_Worksop_Herald_and_17_June_1893_0002_Clip.jpg Views:	0 Size:	168.3 KB ID:	828968

    Was Henry Lestevance the "Paris Torso killer?"


    RD
    Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 01-16-2024, 10:46 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by New Ford Shunt View Post
    Charlie

    I've trawled the British newspapers and these are the torso cases I've found outside of the UK between 1850 and 1900. They don't include cases of mass dismemberment such as massacres or war-related atrocities.

    Two things should be borne in mind when looking at the list. Firstly, it's very difficult to accurately locate all cases when you are dealing with a search which includes the word 'dismemberment'. This is used in the English language at the time in terms of dismembering a country due to war, or dismembering the British Empire. Therefore I'm sure I've undoubtedly missed some cases. Secondly, the list is based on newspaper reporting so the names, locations etc. may well be incorrect.

    Interestingly, on the cases where we do know a motive, the bodies have been dismembered for disposal purposes, I don't think I've read of one case where there's a homicidal maniac cutting people into pieces and putting them on display - that's not to say there aren't cases like that of course. Anyway, here you go:
    Excellent post NFS!

    I have a query regarding the data listed for the 1892 Rue Botzaris murder; the data in the table lists the crime as solved, and that the killer was a man named "Lestevance."


    Charlie, I thought that the Rue Botzaris crime was one of the 2 unsolved dismemberment murders that you have linked together on this thread.
    Are you able to corroborate any of the recent data that NFS has posted?

    Lestevance was one of the most violent indivdiuals; having claimed while "intoxicated" that he was the man who dismembered the victim in Rue Botzaris.

    He was suspected of attempting to murder at least 15 women in Paris over the course of just a few months in 1892.


    But what's interesting about him, is that he was from Brittany

    He spoke fluent English, French and Spanish.

    He once shot a woman twice and threw her out a window.

    He also ripped out hair, smashed teeth and inflicted brutal punishments on his victims.


    There are many reports on him in the English press but I had no idea that he was linked to the Botzaris torso murder.


    This is significant because IF he was the killer in 1892, and he is linked by proxy to the 1886 murder in montrouge, then how does this potentially impact on him being a torso killer suspect in areas outside of Paris?

    Was Lestvance convicted of the Rue Boztaris murder?


    RD


    Leave a comment:

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