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  • #31
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    I've only just stumbled across this thread. Thanks for posting all this interesting information Charlie. Excellent work. I look forward to reading through it all.
    I did post a link over on JTRForums Debra but you couldn’t have seen it. I knew of your interest. I should have just sent a pm.

    Comment


    • #32
      Now that Debra has got involved and noticed your work Charlie, this thread now takes a step up to a whole new level.
      There are only a handful of elite researchers in the Ripper case, and Debra is one of those.

      Bravo to you for initiating this particular thread.

      RD
      "Great minds, don't think alike"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        I did post a link over on JTRForums Debra but you couldn’t have seen it. I knew of your interest. I should have just sent a pm.
        Thanks Michael. I must have missed it as I don't visit there as often these days.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
          Now that Debra has got involved and noticed your work Charlie, this thread now takes a step up to a whole new level.
          There are only a handful of elite researchers in the Ripper case, and Debra is one of those.

          Bravo to you for initiating this particular thread.

          RD
          You are very kind, RD, (your cheque is in the post!) but I am here to learn. I know barely anything of the details of these French cases of Dépeçage. I see them described in French newspapers and documents but with only very basic French, I rely on OCR and Google translate, which isn't the best way.

          Comment


          • #35
            Thank you for the warm welcome to this thread. It's heartening, especially considering that so few people show interest in the Thames Torso Murders from the period 1887-1889 in Anglo-Saxon countries (except on this forum), and the situation is even worse in France. For instance, there is no French literature on this theme, nor any French translation of the three existing British works. As for the Montrouge crime, it's even more challenging—there is nothing on the subject.

            I recall first hearing about the Montrouge crime in R. Michael Gordon's book, but he mentioned the date as "November 1886." In the first chapter of her novel "Mayhem" (published in French as "Whitechapel"), Sarah Pinborough recounts the Montrouge crime but repeats R. Michael Gordon's date error. She also claims that the first parcel was deposited on the square of the Montrouge church, which, as seen in the documents above, is an inaccurate detail.
            When I started working on the Montrouge crime, I had to go through a very, very large number of newspapers from that time before understanding that there was a date mistake.

            To the credit of these authors, the original error stemmed from a French newspaper clipping in 1888, during the time of the Ripper crimes, in the daily "Le XIXe siècle."
            Le voici:
            “There had been a madness of murder in the air. Some red star had come too close to the earth…”
            Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Dorian Gray

            Comment


            • #36
              Click image for larger version

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              "Le XIXe siècle" du 23 novembre 1888. Source: Gallica
              “There had been a madness of murder in the air. Some red star had come too close to the earth…”
              Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Dorian Gray

              Comment


              • #37
                En voici la traduction :

                THE MYSTERIES OF LONDON
                —————

                New Crime in Whitechapel. —
                Failed Murder Attempt. — The Assassin
                on the Run.

                (FROM A CORRESPONDENT)

                London, November 21.

                This morning, the rumor spread that the corpse of another murdered and mutilated woman, similar to the previous ones, had been found in a house in a back alley in Whitechapel.
                This grim news had a kernel of truth; however, this time it was only a failed murder attempt, which, at first glance, seemed to be linked to the series of unsolved crimes for three months, attributed to "Jack the Ripper," and which may lead to the discovery and arrest of the mysterious criminal, now described by his victim, if indeed it is the same individual.
                Here is how the events unfolded, according to the account of the woman who escaped the murderer:
                This woman, named Farmer, accompanied by a man with whom she had been drinking during part of the night, rented a room this morning at four o'clock in a disreputable house on George Street, Whitechapel. Around nine o'clock, screams were heard; then the companion of Farmer was seen fleeing hastily. She then emerged from her room; she was wounded in the throat.
                The victim's cries for help had frightened the assassin away before he could complete his deed.
                However, the latest information tends to downplay the significance of this murder attempt. Farmer received only a minor wound to the throat, and she already knew her assailant.

                THE MONTROUGE CRIME
                The woman cut into pieces. The elusive murderer.

                One may recall the Montrouge crime committed in November 1886, which caused a great stir in Paris. The body of a young woman, cut into three sections, was found on Avenue d'Orléans, Rue d'Alésia, and in front of the church of Montrouge.
                The right breast and uterus had been torn out; the trunk was cut at the neck and at thigh level with a butcher's knife; the right arm and head were missing.
                According to all examining magistrates, this was not a macabre joke played by medical students: it was an act of savagery committed by some brute accustomed to butchering animals.
                As seen, this murder bore the closest resemblance to the ten recent crimes in Whitechapel. Even more striking, the trunk was wrapped in English oilcloth and tied with an English whipcord; the same origin mark was found with the bloody remains.
                Was the Montrouge crime the trial run for the Whitechapel assassin?
                Mr. Goron, chief of police, has just dispatched Sergeant Jaume to London, carrying with him the various pieces of evidence we have just mentioned.
                Perhaps this skilled agent can provide valuable information to the London police, which seems to be out of ideas and utterly discouraged.
                “There had been a madness of murder in the air. Some red star had come too close to the earth…”
                Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Dorian Gray

                Comment


                • #38
                  Wanted to thank the original poster and other contributors for this thread. I have a casual interest in river dismemberment cases, but had not heard of these Paris cases until now. Very interesting!
                  Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                  ---------------
                  Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                  ---------------

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                    Wanted to thank the original poster and other contributors for this thread. I have a casual interest in river dismemberment cases, but had not heard of these Paris cases until now. Very interesting!
                    The data that Charlie has submitted onto this thread is exceptional. I hadn't heard of the Paris cases until now either.
                    The similarities and time frame between the London and Paris torsos are rather startling.
                    I have always believed the London Torso killer placed his victims Torsos in their respective locations for a reason.
                    There is a clear connection to those locations with the recent construction of those locations.
                    The Whitehall Torso during the construction of the New Scotland Yard
                    The Pinchin Street Torso after the recent construction of the railway arches on the Great Eastern railway line (and next to Board of Works stone breaking yard)

                    When we also look at the multiple witnesses who saw Elizabeth Jackson talking with a man who looked like a Navvy (a civil engineer who worked on the railways/canals etc.... then the potential link is reaffirmed.
                    Jackson's torso was found in the waterways.
                    The man seen talking with Jackson and the most likeliest time she was dismembered would almost certainly confirm that he was murdered within 12 hours of being seen with the "Navvy"
                    ​​​
                    So in the torso killer we potentially have a man who is a who helped in the literal construction of the many large scale building projects.

                    Now when we look at Coles and Nichols, they were both murdered next to the train line, the former being killed under an archway on the same stretch of railway line as the Pinchin St torso.

                    We also have an alleged letter from the Ripper with the words "on the right TRACK" being underlined and emphasized.

                    When we then look at the recipient of the many alleged correspondences from the Ripper, we have George Lusk who was a former builder for the Board of Works (and freemason)
                    Lusk was involved in several building projects and renovations of theatres over the years and so I put forward the idea that the torso killer MAY have been a builder who had previously worked for Lusk, either at the Board of Works and/or involved in the building of his theatre renovation projects. That may then give credence to the term "Dear Boss."

                    When we put this all together, there are certainly grounds to pursue looking at the Torso killer as being connected to the Ripper case.
                    I personally believe that they were the same man and this is reaffirmed by Charlie's evidence from the French Torso killer.
                    So we have a potential unknown suspect who was a Navvy and was able to travel to/from Paris for work. If not the Ripper, then certainly the Torso killer.
                    ​​​​​​And so how do Kelly, Eddowes and Chapman fit into this?
                    Well there murder sites are all close to Board of Works land/yards etc... and so that may be a link.
                    But let's not forget that Kelly did live in Paris prior to London and her landlord McCarthy was born in Dieppe.
                    We also have Le Grand who spent time in France and was even known as the "French Colonel" (despite not being French)
                    We also have Albert Cadosche who was a native Parisian and who lives next door to 29 Hanbury St.

                    The question is... Is there a man who worked as a Navvy/civil engineer/builder, who helped construct the very arches under which he placed his victims, helped build the foundations of New Scotland Yard and also the Canalways, ergo, the infrastructure...but who also worked in Paris?
                    The French connection should not be underestimated and I feel like this thread IS on the right track.

                    As previously mentioned, I have identified a man name John Donnelly who ran a private workshop in the cellar of 38 Dorset St, the same address linked to Stride and Kidney.
                    He also almost certainly murdered his ex-common law wife in that cellar AND was named as the man who murdered Stride (by a woman at a police station in Cardiff)
                    Donnelly lived at 12 Dorset St
                    He was also a Marble Mason, i.e. a specialist builder who worked with stone.
                    Not forgetting the Stone breaking yard owned by the board of works next to the Pinchin Street torso.

                    This man has only ever been mentioned once before on the forums site, but was dismissed because he had allegedly died in 1887...BUT, that is not correct.
                    He (allegedly) murdered Alice in the cellar of 38 Dorset St in 1894, so he was alive and well.

                    When we look at all the elements collectively as mentioned in this thread, we have a lot of facts that can be linked, if only we chose to open our eyes to something new.

                    If there was an employee list for the Board of works, the that would help to add another level to proceedings.

                    Lots to ponder

                    RD
                    ​​​​​

                    ​​​​​

                    ​​​​​​
                    "Great minds, don't think alike"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      My apologies for the ridiculous amount of typos in my last post.
                      I've annoyed myself because I find multiple typos infuriating.

                      RD
                      "Great minds, don't think alike"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        An interesting article:

                        The Psychology of Corpse Dismemberment - The Motivation Behind the Most Grotesque of Crimes | HuffPost UK News (huffingtonpost.co.uk)

                        Helinä Häkkänen-Nyholm, Eila Repo-Tiihonen and other Finnish academic colleagues have published one of the definitive pieces of research on this kind of gruesome killing in a paper entitled 'Homicides with Mutilation of the Victim's Body' and published in the prestigious 'Journal of Forensic Sciences'.

                        The third most common category is usually referred to as an 'offensive' mutilation where the dismemberment is in fact the real purpose of the murder all along, and these include lust and necro-sadistic murders. Those driven by primarily sexual motives mutilate the corpse in characteristic ways, Konopka, Kunz and colleagues report, for example severing genital organs or breasts. Some perpetrators pull out abdominal organs through the disfigured genital tract. Death by strangling is apparently very common in this kind of homicide.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Thanks for the article, Fleetwood Mac. it's very interesting.

                          With this Paris Torso Mystery and the crimes of the Thames Torso Killer, we are indeed in the third category, that of offensive dismemberments—meaning those where dismemberment is the actual purpose of the murder.

                          Without ruling out the fourth category, corresponding to "psychotic" murders, "where the perpetrator has lost touch with reasoning and perceptual reality in the conventional sense, so that they may be hearing voices or they suffer from bizarre delusions."
                          “There had been a madness of murder in the air. Some red star had come too close to the earth…”
                          Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Dorian Gray

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Charlie View Post
                            Thanks for the article, Fleetwood Mac. it's very interesting.

                            With this Paris Torso Mystery and the crimes of the Thames Torso Killer, we are indeed in the third category, that of offensive dismemberments—meaning those where dismemberment is the actual purpose of the murder.

                            Without ruling out the fourth category, corresponding to "psychotic" murders, "where the perpetrator has lost touch with reasoning and perceptual reality in the conventional sense, so that they may be hearing voices or they suffer from bizarre delusions."
                            No bother, Charlie.

                            The Torso Murders and dismemberment in general is not something I've read much about, but over the last few days I've read a few articles citing research in this area (prompted by your OP) which have been very interesting, surprising and illuminating.

                            The untrained eye, and I include myself in that, would assume that murders which involve dismemberment are similar murders to be grouped together and distinct from what we know of the WM's murders. That's not what the research suggests at all.

                            What's interesting about the article posted is as follows:

                            1) It is described as 'one of the definitive pieces of research' in the 'prestigious journal.....', which presumably is peer reviewed, and so it carries weight.

                            2) Dismemberment in an attempt to conceal a body, is entirely different to dismemberment of a body which has been mutilated. The psychology and the motive on the part of the criminal is entirely different.

                            3) Leaving a dismembered body in the streets will give the murderer a great deal of gratification as a result of the shock and horror on the part of the finder, something the murderer would have fantasised about.

                            So, in the event you have a Pinchin Street torso, the dismemberment of the body does not distinguish the crime from the WM's crimes, given that mutilation took place and the body was left in the street to be found by somebody who would have been horrified. The same psychology and motive underpins the crime.

                            There may be a case to posit that there were two murderers but at least one of the murders assigned to the Torso Murderer should have been assigned to the WM.

                            But, there is a potential problem from the research, or maybe not depending upon point of view:

                            The authors of this study report the key clue from their research which they believe will assist in tracking down these killers in the future is that unlike other kinds of homicide, the offender is always known to the victim.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              This point is indeed very important, Fleetwood Mac. The problem is that the victims are—almost— never identified, so the issue remains unresolved. Except for Elizabeth Jackson, the only one on whom investigators managed to put a name. It would be interesting, therefore, to work on the Jackson case based on this criterion.

                              Another important point from the article:
                              "Surprisingly, given some specialists in the area had suggested that abattoir workers, mortuary attendants, or butchers may be more represented in this group of killers, as occupational access to corpses or anatomical knowledge might be required, yet in the Finnish study, none of the perpetrators had an occupation that required anatomical knowledge or handling corpses."
                              This also eliminates a certain number of people, considering that butchers and other slaughterers were often pointed out in this type of cases.
                              “There had been a madness of murder in the air. Some red star had come too close to the earth…”
                              Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Dorian Gray

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Charlie View Post
                                This point is indeed very important, Fleetwood Mac. The problem is that the victims are—almost— never identified, so the issue remains unresolved. Except for Elizabeth Jackson, the only one on whom investigators managed to put a name. It would be interesting, therefore, to work on the Jackson case based on this criterion.

                                Another important point from the article: This also eliminates a certain number of people, considering that butchers and other slaughterers were often pointed out in this type of cases.
                                The murder of Elizabeth Jackson is unique in that she was the only victim of the torso killer that was ever identified.

                                And that is very significant because that would then suggest that the killer had done something he hadn't done before...

                                He made a mistake.

                                His mistake stems from the idea that he had never intended for Jackson to be identified.

                                By Jackson having been subsequently identified as a victim, it would most likely have come as a surprise to her killer.


                                RD


                                "Great minds, don't think alike"

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