The Paris Torso Mystery

[Fisherman]

If the Whitechapel Murderer had transport, as you claim he had, then why did he not pick up his victims and transport them to his bolthole?

You write that he

most likely killed in some sort of bolthole

Why did he not kill six of his victims in his bolthole?

Why did not Peter Sutcliffe, Ted Bundy and Peter Kürten do all their crimes in the exact same way?

[Fisherman]

Cancelled

[Fisherman]

Cancelled

[Fisherman]

Cancelled

[Fisherman]

Cancelled

[Fisherman]

Cancelled

[Fisherman]

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[Fisherman]

cancelled

[Fisherman]

Cancelled

[Fisherman]

These imaginary experts who have determined that the Whitechapel Murders and the 'Torso' Murders were committed by one and the same hand are now "scientists"?

Are you not aware, Christer, that studies have determined that 'signature' is a pseudoscience?

These are the authors of the research referred to, "Homicides with Mutilation of the Victim’s Body".
:
Helinä Häkkänen-Nyholm, PhD, psychologist, Selected works:

• "Psychopathy, Homicide, and the Courts: Working the System" Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 36 No. 8 (August 2009), pp 761–777
• "Finnish sexual homicides: Offence and offender characteristics" Forensic Science International, Vol. 188 No. 1 (2009), pp 125–130
• "Homicides with Mutilation of the Victim's Body" Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 54 No. 4 (July 2009), pp 933–937
• "Gender differences in Finnish homicide offence characteristics" Forensic Science International, Vol. 186 No. 1 (2009), pp 75–80
• Psychopathy in Families: Implications for Clinical Interviews and Civil Proceedings Wiley Online Library
• Psychopathy in Economical Crime, Organized Crime, and War Crimes Wiley Online Library
• Psychopathy and law: a practitioner's guide Malden, Massachusetts: Wiley-Blackwell (2012)

Eila Repo-Tiihonen, psychiatrist, Selected works:

• Female Psychopathy and Mortality
  
  Vaurio, O., Lähteenvuo, M., Kautiainen, H., Repo-Tiihonen, E. & Tiihonen, J., 10 mars 2022, I: Frontiers in psychiatry. 13, 6 s., 831410.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Artikel › Vetenskaplig › Peer review
• Patient participation in pro re nata medication in forensic psychiatric care: A nursing document analysis
  
  Hipp, K.,Repo-Tiihonen, E., Kuosmanen, L., Katajisto, J. & Kangasniemi, M., 2021, I: Journal of Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing. 28, 4, s. 611-621 11 s.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Artikel › Vetenskaplig › Peer review
• PRN Medication Events in a Forensic Psychiatric Hospital: A Document Analysis of the Prevalence and Reasons
  
  Hipp, K., Repo-Tiihonen, E., Kuosmanen, L., Katajisto, J. & Kangasniemi, M., 1 okt. 2020, I: International journal of forensic mental health. 19, 4, s. 329-340 12 s.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Artikel › Vetenskaplig › Peer review
• Violence Factors and Debriefing in Psychiatric Inpatient Care A Review
  
  Asikainen, J., Vehviläinen-Julkunen, K., Repo-Tiihonen, E. & Louheranta, O., maj 2020, I: Journal of Psychosocial Nursing and Mental Health Services.58, 5, s. 39-49 11 s.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Översiktsartikel › Peer review

Nina Lindberg, professor, Department of Psychiatry, University of Helsinki

Stephan Salenius, psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and associate professor (neurophysiology) with broad experience in brain research, health care administration, pharmaceutical industry (Bristol Myers Squibb and Lundbeck), and patient care. Ph.D. and M.D. from University of Helsinki.

Ghitta Weizmann-Henelius, associate professor of forensic psychology, Gamla Vasa Hospital, Vasa, Finland

Your question, R J, was whether ot not these people are scientists. I submit they are very much so. And you are most welcome to prove to the scientific community involved in this line of research that their work is "pseudo-science", but I think you will find it very hard to make any other impression than that of being rude and uninformed. To be frank, I dislike both things, but I find the latter one worst.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

So yo are saying that a serial killer who sometimes uses transport and sometimes don' t is a unlikely thing?

How many examples do you want of the opposite?

It is likely not as if the killer dismembered his victims while being driven through the streets of London, is it? He most likely killed in some sort of bolthole, and THEN he used transport to dump the parts. If he had kept the parts lying in his bolthole, that would have spelt disaster if they were found and he was linked to then place.

The problem was not there with street killings - no need to transport and dump the victims.

Why invent problems that are not there?

If the Whitechapel Murderer had transport, as you claim he had, then why did he not pick up his victims and transport them to his bolthole?

You write that he

most likely killed in some sort of bolthole

Why did he not kill six of his victims in his bolthole?

[Fleetwood Mac]

who actually reads up

That's the important point, Christer.

'Can't draw informed opinions without all of the available information.

[rjpalmer]

Clearly, we can now eliminate Aaron Kozminski from our inquiries. He wasn't in London in 1873 when the woman was found mutilated near Battersea Pier.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Great post FM. I particularly agree with your conclusion in the final paragraph.

Between the WM and the TTM we have 14 murders (leaving aside for the moment, Chapman, who Abbilene included), so we can only conclude that there were between 1 and 14 perpetrators. Magnaghten insisted that "the Whitechapel murderer had 5 victims—& 5 victims only". So to whom did he attribute the other 9 victims? Phillips, Bond, Anderson and Munro all had differing opinions on which victims could be attributed to Jack. Baxter stated at the Stride Inquest, referring to Eddowes, "There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator;", an opinion possibly formed in discussion with Phillips who, at least initially, thought the same thing.

Christer's proposal has the best odds. The odds against increase dramatically with each additional perpetrator until we reach 14 (enough for a local branch of Psychopaths Anonymous) where the odds against must be in the region of Sagan's Googolplex.

It would be interesting if proposals for multiple murderers were accompanied by a proposed distribution of victims.

Cheers, George

Another consideration, George, is how we view Victorian London. 130 years later it is viewed with an overarching impression of being a smog-filled, poverty stricken, breeding ground for 'sexual deviants'; and in that context it doesn't seem a stretch to conclude that various rare types of murders were committed by different people.

In actual fact, murder in London was rare at that time and many of them were domestic related. It was dangerous in certain parts but the type of crime we're talking about is alcohol-fuelled casual violence and robbery.

The impression of Victorian London as ripe for producing rare sexual serial murderers, isn't supported by events at all. All of the cities in England have always had parts of the city that are relatively poor when compared with other parts of the city, complete with slums and lawlessness. There's nothing different about London in that regard. There have been something like only five serial killers in London throughout history that you could say committed similar crimes to the WM and TM. London is a big place and those five murderers operated in different parts of the city.

That impression of Victorian London masks the reality that these types of crimes are extremely rare throughout the whole country and throughout history.

I reckon too much emphasis has been placed on what doctors and the police of the time thought in terms of linking crimes to one another, i.e. drawing conclusions based upon skilful or otherwise, type of weapon used and so on. Ultimately, they were expecting all crimes within a crime series to display pretty much the same behaviour including type of knife, type of cut, injuries inflicted and so on. We know from experience that sexual serial murderers do not follow such rigid behaviour. The authorities of that time didn't understand that. We know that post-mortem mutilation and body posing are signs of linked crimes, particularly when you consider the location and proximity of time; and whether or not a different knife was used or the cut to the throat was different or whatever, does not detract from the overall theme of a connected series of murders.

I'd agree your conclusion on what's more likely, George.

[rjpalmer]

Not the scientists who are researching this kind of behavior, though. And I would. much rather side with them than with you, to be honest.

These imaginary experts who have determined that the Whitechapel Murders and the 'Torso' Murders were committed by one and the same hand are now "scientists"?

Are you not aware, Christer, that studies have determined that 'signature' is a pseudoscience?

You then, somewhat touchingly, move on to telling us that there are "dozens of torso cases" where the decapitation was part of an effort to thwart identification.
Donat you think that I am aware of that, RJ? Really?
The question that arises from this matter is this one:
In which of the dozens of torso cases you refer to, and where the dismemberment was carried out to thwart identification, do you have the killer cutting out the uterus from any of his victims?

And here I thought I had referred to the Rainham victim's decapitation. Now she had her uterus cut and carried away, did she?

But alas, as I informed you in the past, however much I would enjoy a good healthy debate, I'm not going to do it until you learn to correctly use the 'Quote' function, as it is too much bother to readjust your interlinear responses so I can respond point by point.

I'm going to stick to that promise.