The Paris Torso Mystery

[Fisherman]

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[Fisherman]

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[Fisherman]

These imaginary experts who have determined that the Whitechapel Murders and the 'Torso' Murders were committed by one and the same hand are now "scientists"?

Are you not aware, Christer, that studies have determined that 'signature' is a pseudoscience?

These are the authors of the research referred to, "Homicides with Mutilation of the Victim’s Body".
:
Helinä Häkkänen-Nyholm, PhD, psychologist, Selected works:

• "Psychopathy, Homicide, and the Courts: Working the System" Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 36 No. 8 (August 2009), pp 761–777
• "Finnish sexual homicides: Offence and offender characteristics" Forensic Science International, Vol. 188 No. 1 (2009), pp 125–130
• "Homicides with Mutilation of the Victim's Body" Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 54 No. 4 (July 2009), pp 933–937
• "Gender differences in Finnish homicide offence characteristics" Forensic Science International, Vol. 186 No. 1 (2009), pp 75–80
• Psychopathy in Families: Implications for Clinical Interviews and Civil Proceedings Wiley Online Library
• Psychopathy in Economical Crime, Organized Crime, and War Crimes Wiley Online Library
• Psychopathy and law: a practitioner's guide Malden, Massachusetts: Wiley-Blackwell (2012)

Eila Repo-Tiihonen, psychiatrist, Selected works:

• Female Psychopathy and Mortality
  
  Vaurio, O., Lähteenvuo, M., Kautiainen, H., Repo-Tiihonen, E. & Tiihonen, J., 10 mars 2022, I: Frontiers in psychiatry. 13, 6 s., 831410.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Artikel › Vetenskaplig › Peer review
• Patient participation in pro re nata medication in forensic psychiatric care: A nursing document analysis
  
  Hipp, K.,Repo-Tiihonen, E., Kuosmanen, L., Katajisto, J. & Kangasniemi, M., 2021, I: Journal of Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing. 28, 4, s. 611-621 11 s.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Artikel › Vetenskaplig › Peer review
• PRN Medication Events in a Forensic Psychiatric Hospital: A Document Analysis of the Prevalence and Reasons
  
  Hipp, K., Repo-Tiihonen, E., Kuosmanen, L., Katajisto, J. & Kangasniemi, M., 1 okt. 2020, I: International journal of forensic mental health. 19, 4, s. 329-340 12 s.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Artikel › Vetenskaplig › Peer review
• Violence Factors and Debriefing in Psychiatric Inpatient Care A Review
  
  Asikainen, J., Vehviläinen-Julkunen, K., Repo-Tiihonen, E. & Louheranta, O., maj 2020, I: Journal of Psychosocial Nursing and Mental Health Services.58, 5, s. 39-49 11 s.
  
  Forskningsoutput: Tidskriftsbidrag › Översiktsartikel › Peer review

Nina Lindberg, professor, Department of Psychiatry, University of Helsinki

Stephan Salenius, psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and associate professor (neurophysiology) with broad experience in brain research, health care administration, pharmaceutical industry (Bristol Myers Squibb and Lundbeck), and patient care. Ph.D. and M.D. from University of Helsinki.

Ghitta Weizmann-Henelius, associate professor of forensic psychology, Gamla Vasa Hospital, Vasa, Finland

Your question, R J, was whether ot not these people are scientists. I submit they are very much so. And you are most welcome to prove to the scientific community involved in this line of research that their work is "pseudo-science", but I think you will find it very hard to make any other impression than that of being rude and uninformed. To be frank, I dislike both things, but I find the latter one worst.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

So yo are saying that a serial killer who sometimes uses transport and sometimes don' t is a unlikely thing?

How many examples do you want of the opposite?

It is likely not as if the killer dismembered his victims while being driven through the streets of London, is it? He most likely killed in some sort of bolthole, and THEN he used transport to dump the parts. If he had kept the parts lying in his bolthole, that would have spelt disaster if they were found and he was linked to then place.

The problem was not there with street killings - no need to transport and dump the victims.

Why invent problems that are not there?

If the Whitechapel Murderer had transport, as you claim he had, then why did he not pick up his victims and transport them to his bolthole?

You write that he

most likely killed in some sort of bolthole

Why did he not kill six of his victims in his bolthole?

[Fleetwood Mac]

who actually reads up

That's the important point, Christer.

'Can't draw informed opinions without all of the available information.

[rjpalmer]

Clearly, we can now eliminate Aaron Kozminski from our inquiries. He wasn't in London in 1873 when the woman was found mutilated near Battersea Pier.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Great post FM. I particularly agree with your conclusion in the final paragraph.

Between the WM and the TTM we have 14 murders (leaving aside for the moment, Chapman, who Abbilene included), so we can only conclude that there were between 1 and 14 perpetrators. Magnaghten insisted that "the Whitechapel murderer had 5 victims—& 5 victims only". So to whom did he attribute the other 9 victims? Phillips, Bond, Anderson and Munro all had differing opinions on which victims could be attributed to Jack. Baxter stated at the Stride Inquest, referring to Eddowes, "There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator;", an opinion possibly formed in discussion with Phillips who, at least initially, thought the same thing.

Christer's proposal has the best odds. The odds against increase dramatically with each additional perpetrator until we reach 14 (enough for a local branch of Psychopaths Anonymous) where the odds against must be in the region of Sagan's Googolplex.

It would be interesting if proposals for multiple murderers were accompanied by a proposed distribution of victims.

Cheers, George

Another consideration, George, is how we view Victorian London. 130 years later it is viewed with an overarching impression of being a smog-filled, poverty stricken, breeding ground for 'sexual deviants'; and in that context it doesn't seem a stretch to conclude that various rare types of murders were committed by different people.

In actual fact, murder in London was rare at that time and many of them were domestic related. It was dangerous in certain parts but the type of crime we're talking about is alcohol-fuelled casual violence and robbery.

The impression of Victorian London as ripe for producing rare sexual serial murderers, isn't supported by events at all. All of the cities in England have always had parts of the city that are relatively poor when compared with other parts of the city, complete with slums and lawlessness. There's nothing different about London in that regard. There have been something like only five serial killers in London throughout history that you could say committed similar crimes to the WM and TM. London is a big place and those five murderers operated in different parts of the city.

That impression of Victorian London masks the reality that these types of crimes are extremely rare throughout the whole country and throughout history.

I reckon too much emphasis has been placed on what doctors and the police of the time thought in terms of linking crimes to one another, i.e. drawing conclusions based upon skilful or otherwise, type of weapon used and so on. Ultimately, they were expecting all crimes within a crime series to display pretty much the same behaviour including type of knife, type of cut, injuries inflicted and so on. We know from experience that sexual serial murderers do not follow such rigid behaviour. The authorities of that time didn't understand that. We know that post-mortem mutilation and body posing are signs of linked crimes, particularly when you consider the location and proximity of time; and whether or not a different knife was used or the cut to the throat was different or whatever, does not detract from the overall theme of a connected series of murders.

I'd agree your conclusion on what's more likely, George.

[rjpalmer]

Not the scientists who are researching this kind of behavior, though. And I would. much rather side with them than with you, to be honest.

These imaginary experts who have determined that the Whitechapel Murders and the 'Torso' Murders were committed by one and the same hand are now "scientists"?

Are you not aware, Christer, that studies have determined that 'signature' is a pseudoscience?

You then, somewhat touchingly, move on to telling us that there are "dozens of torso cases" where the decapitation was part of an effort to thwart identification.
Donat you think that I am aware of that, RJ? Really?
The question that arises from this matter is this one:
In which of the dozens of torso cases you refer to, and where the dismemberment was carried out to thwart identification, do you have the killer cutting out the uterus from any of his victims?

And here I thought I had referred to the Rainham victim's decapitation. Now she had her uterus cut and carried away, did she?

But alas, as I informed you in the past, however much I would enjoy a good healthy debate, I'm not going to do it until you learn to correctly use the 'Quote' function, as it is too much bother to readjust your interlinear responses so I can respond point by point.

I'm going to stick to that promise.

[The Rookie Detective]

interesting rd
jerry dunlop has found alot of links between the Board of works and the torso/ ripper crimes.
wheres your thread on donnelly?

My Donnelly thread comes under "Leap of Faith"

I have a lot more data on Donnelly and currently endeavouring to find more, but I have chosen to omit certain details for the time being to see whether the thread has any viable traction with others.
At the moment is has not received any feedback; which is to be expected.
The key aspect of Donnelly is the fact he had a private workshop in the cellar of 38 Dorset Street accessed only be a ladder, and that he was a marble mason i.e. a specialist builder who worked with heavy stone work.
He also escaped conviction for the mysterious death of his so-called common law wife Alice, who visited him at his workshop.
She was last seen on the Thursday. He claimed she had a fit and fell into the fire in his workshop. He claimed to have nursed her for nearly 4 days before she was eventually "removed to the infirmary."
She was still alive but unconscious, although she died soon after in the infirmary.
Luckily for Donnelly the coroner stated her cause of death as natural causes from artery disease... This was despite her face being severely burnt and her body covered in bruises and burns, akin to someone being slowly tortured.
He was warned as to his behaviour and told he was lucky that she hadn't died in his cellar workshop, otherwise he would have a case to answer for.
There's also the case of a woman who walked into Cardiff Central police station and told the officer on duty that a man named John Donnelley had murdered Stride, but she was not taken seriously for reasons outlined in my thread.
Donnelly lived at 12 Dorset St for years, before and after the murders and so the Geo-profiiling also supports a man who lived in either Flower and Dean, Thrawl or Dorset St.
But it's his profession as a marble mason and his private workshop that most interest me.
He ran his workshop at 38 Dorset Street, the exact same address that Kidney and Stride lived prior to Stride leaving Kidney.
So we have a specialist builder living at 12 Dorset St, working in 38 Dorset St and Miller's Court within yards of both addresses.
These are all only very small details, but add them together and he warrants further investigation as a person of interest at the very least.
Let's also remember that the Torso killer needed to of had somewhere private in order to dismember his victims. His cellar had a fire which was possibly a small furnace used for stone work.
The Pinchin St torso was dumped next to the Board of Works Stone breaking yard.

I am currently trying to find if there exists a list of men who worked specifically on the Great Eastern Railway arches which directly link Pinchin St Torso with Frances Coles, and whether the arched cellar under which the Whitehall Torso was dumped was also made of a similar structure.
The Whitehall Torso and the Pinchin St torso were both dumped under ARCHES that formed part of the structural foundation of those sites.

When we also look at Jackson's last known movements and her being seen with a man described as looking like a Baby, then we have yet another link to the building of the infrastructure that involves railways, canals and possibly the reinforced arch in the cellar of the New Scotland yard building.


Donnelly himself was born in the north west and moved to London for work. He was never married to Alice despite claiming to be on multiple census returns.
At the time she mysteriously fell into the fire in his cellar, they had recently split up.
The question is, why did he leave her in his cellar for 4 days before she was removed to the infirmary?

I believe he may have been the Torso killer...and possibly the Ripper.
An unknown local working man who can be possibly be connected to both cases.

Regarding Jerry Dunlop; his work on the Board of Works is exceptional and he has found infinitely more data on that particular area than I ever could.

His research tells us a lot and I would encourage everyone to take a closer look at this.

RD

[Fisherman]

Thanks, RD.

I have read previously about Eddowes' claiming to have met the murderer.

I did not mean that the murderer did not know any of his victims, although I doubt that he did, nor the length of time he took to murder them, but how long he intended to spend with them after murdering them.

I was thinking of cases in which the M.O. changed - before I saw your reply - but it is not the M.O. I am concerned with so much as what the murderer wants from the victim and how he intends to get away with his crime.

The Whitechapel Murderer was obviously not willing to spend so much time with a dead body as the Torso Murderers, nor to have the duty to dispose of it, that he might thereby have seriously risked being caught.

Since the Whitechapel Murders took place during the period in which the Torso Murders were committed, then the murderer - if he were the same person - would have changed his M.O. back and, moreover, wold have variously been mobile or pedestrian.

How likely is that?

So yo are saying that a serial killer who sometimes uses transport and sometimes don' t is a unlikely thing?

How many examples do you want of the opposite?

It is likely not as if the killer dismembered his victims while being driven through the streets of London, is it? He most likely killed in some sort of bolthole, and THEN he used transport to dump the parts. If he had kept the parts lying in his bolthole, that would have spelt disaster if they were found and he was linked to then place.

The problem was not there with street killings - no need to transport and dump the victims.

Why invent problems that are not there?