Pinchin Street Torso - who did it?

[Sam Flynn]

What start to narrow things down as highly unlikely, at least IMO, is having two killers in the same general time frame, in the same general area

I think we can stop there. For "same general time frame", read "happened within the same two and a half decades" - well, so did many, many other murders. For "in the same general area", read "the whole of London; one series in the West, another concentrated on a handful of streets in the East".

These parameters are much, much too wide to draw any inference, as is the conjecture that all the victims were prostitutes - which we don't know but, even if they were, then prostitutes are frequently targeted by killers, serial or otherwise.

We don't even know that we're dealing with one torso murderer, or even one Ripper for that matter. However many TMs/Rippers there were, they were extemely unlikely to have been one and the same person(s).

[Dane_F]

Here here Fisherman. Many people are so tied to their theories that any information, even factual, that goes against it is ignored outright.

Since this thread is specifically about the PST I went back through my old posts spread throughout and copied the relevant, factual evidence based off the autopsy, as to the similarities between this torso and some of the C5. Below is parts of a couple of posts I made years ago that I feel are revelant (the original thread is the Whitehall Mystery one):


I went back to the Hebbert Autopsy reports that Debra was so very kind to link to earlier in this thread and read what they had to say about the Pinchin St. Torso.

Fact #1: From just below the neck there was a long gash that cut through the skin and the muscle of the abdomen all the way down past the pubes opening the vagina and stopping slightly past it in the left inner thigh area.

Fact #2: The neck was very clearly cut. Two incisions were made. One starting from behind beginning opposite the spine and moving left to right ending in the front on the right side. The 2nd beginning in the front right and continuing to the back meeting the other incision. The muscle and tissue down to the spine were cut to the same level. In the report he states that the neck and leg incisions had very clear-cut edges. The edges of the cuts show a very sharp knife was used.

Fact #3: The autopsy report states (and I will direct quote this to be clear), "The incisions were evidently made with design, and were skillfully performed. . ."

So we have the autopsy report by Hebbert (with permission of Dr. Bond to reproduce) stating, 1) the vagina was in fact cut. 2) the neck was in fact cut. 3) these cuts were made with design and skillfully performed.

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What start to narrow things down as highly unlikely, at least IMO, is having two killers in the same general time frame, in the same general area, both focusing on "unfortunates", both mutilating bodies, both taking organs in some cases, both mutilating genitals in some cases, both never being seen in the act or around the bodies, both never being caught, and both showing no signs of actually having sex with the victims. That starts to build up a long list of "coincidences" that becomes hard to ignore. Again, IMO.

[Fisherman]

There is still a lot of very improductive flat out denial of established facts going on regarding a link between the Ripper and the Torso killer; "The torso killer was no eviscerator", "The similarities are superficial only", "The flaps from Jacksons belly did not look anything like the ones from Chapman and Kelly", "Once a dismembered, always a dismemberer", "The Torso killer almost certainly had his base in the West" and such things, all of them baseless drivel.
Letīs hope there are better days ahead.

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane

what exactly do you consider genital mutilations on at least a couple of Torso cases?

I believe the only torso victim to have suffered genital wounds was EJ, whose vagina was divided by the cuts opening her belly. I personally do not believe such should be considered “genital mutilation” as it is clearly coincidental to cutting her up.

By your consideration, should you not rather believe the Ripper was NOT involved in the torso cases, because of the lack genital interest in those cases?

Hello Katt as Fisherman pointed out PSW as well had cuts to her genitals and I would also consider the cut/cuts to EJ as genital mutilation.

Years back Deb sent me the link to the actual scans of the autopsy reports (as published) and I remember thinking if the killers only goal was to access EJ's stomach the wounds inflicted need not run so far or enter the vagina.

Of course everything can be called happenstance. It just so happened there were two serial killers operating in a similar area. It just so happened they operated at roughly the same time. It just so happened that they both on at least occasion engaged in genital mutilation.

That has been the argument for years in ignoring the torso murders and any possible connection to JtR. Do keep in mind however, I make no exorbitant claims on the matter. I was simply giving what evidence convinces me.

[Fisherman]

The Pinchin Street woman also had her vagina opened by way of knife, actually. Though I don’t believe genital mutilatipn was any must on the combined killers list. I think it was about taking control over women by way of taking their bodies apart in pieces, and that a uterus, a kidney, a face, a thigh, a colon section or a liver would allow for that fantasy equally well. Any piece would do, although some pieces may perhaps have been more magical than others to the killer.

[Kattrup]

The thing that always stands out to me as to why I think the torso and ripper murders were most likely done by the same hand is the genital mutilation found on at least a couple of the torso victims.

Even if we accept the fact there were two serial killers overlapping in roughly the same area at roughly the same time - genital mutilation, which in and of itself is already extremely rare in serial killers, being present in two different killers in a similar area at a similar time frame is simply too great of a leap for me to make.

That's not me saying all the murders were all connected and related but questioning whether the Ripper was involved in these serial killings is a grossly ignored area of research that has for too long simply been written off as unrelated.

Hello Dane

what exactly do you consider genital mutilations on at least a couple of Torso cases?

I believe the only torso victim to have suffered genital wounds was EJ, whose vagina was divided by the cuts opening her belly. I personally do not believe such should be considered “genital mutilation” as it is clearly coincidental to cutting her up.

By your consideration, should you not rather believe the Ripper was NOT involved in the torso cases, because of the lack genital interest in those cases?

[Dane_F]

The thing that always stands out to me as to why I think the torso and ripper murders were most likely done by the same hand is the genital mutilation found on at least a couple of the torso victims.

Even if we accept the fact there were two serial killers overlapping in roughly the same area at roughly the same time - genital mutilation, which in and of itself is already extremely rare in serial killers, being present in two different killers in a similar area at a similar time frame is simply too great of a leap for me to make.

That's not me saying all the murders were all connected and related but questioning whether the Ripper was involved in these serial killings is a grossly ignored area of research that has for too long simply been written off as unrelated.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Al Bundy's Eyes

If you include the 1873/74 murders as part of the Torso murders, then I think having the two sets of mutilator murders overlap (ripper - torso) is much less surprising as the torso murders then spanned some 15 years or more. Also, I have been looking at the John Gill murder in Bradford and it appears there were two murderers who mutilated at the same time in that area (the other murdered a young girl).

I am of the view that the types of murder in the two serious are fundamentally different and committed by different people. Abby mentions some similarities, I recognise these but do not find these convincing when compared to the differences.

Jerry Dunlop and others have made a pretty good case that the girls and johnny gill murder were by the same person-I tend to agree. not the torsoripper though-geographic location and victimology points too probably not IMHO.

and the only real difference between torso and ripper victims is dismemberment, Which can easily be explained by killers circs.

[Abby Normal]

The 1873/74 murders really skew the timeline and progression, they really were extreme. The similarity that is interesting is that both killers wanted the victims to be discovered. The torso killer could have disposed of the body parts in a secretive manner but left bits out to be soon found. Apart from the heads. I reckon it's not coincidence the skull was never retrieved. And dumping a body on the site of the brand new police building? There's a ton of differences but I keep coming back to "what are the odds of two killers with such extreme tendancies being in the same place at the same time?"

yup bingo, and ending the same time.

[Abby Normal]

Interestingly, Abby, so far two people think the murder was unrelated to either series. Someone else was chopping up women and gashing them open?

yeah so apparently according to them we have three torsorippers. ummm no.

[etenguy]

The 1873/74 murders really skew the timeline and progression, they really were extreme. The similarity that is interesting is that both killers wanted the victims to be discovered. The torso killer could have disposed of the body parts in a secretive manner but left bits out to be soon found. Apart from the heads. I reckon it's not coincidence the skull was never retrieved. And dumping a body on the site of the brand new police building? There's a ton of differences but I keep coming back to "what are the odds of two killers with such extreme tendancies being in the same place at the same time?"

Hi Al Bundy's Eyes

If you include the 1873/74 murders as part of the Torso murders, then I think having the two sets of mutilator murders overlap (ripper - torso) is much less surprising as the torso murders then spanned some 15 years or more. Also, I have been looking at the John Gill murder in Bradford and it appears there were two murderers who mutilated at the same time in that area (the other murdered a young girl).

I am of the view that the types of murder in the two serious are fundamentally different and committed by different people. Abby mentions some similarities, I recognise these but do not find these convincing when compared to the differences.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The 1873/74 murders really skew the timeline and progression, they really were extreme. The similarity that is interesting is that both killers wanted the victims to be discovered. The torso killer could have disposed of the body parts in a secretive manner but left bits out to be soon found. Apart from the heads. I reckon it's not coincidence the skull was never retrieved. And dumping a body on the site of the brand new police building? There's a ton of differences but I keep coming back to "what are the odds of two killers with such extreme tendancies being in the same place at the same time?"

[Harry D]

there are so many similarities between the torso victims and ripper victims. and Pinchin IMHO is one of the stronger ones as shes found in ripper territory.
But to me one of the major links, which pinchin also has, is the vertical gash on the abdomen. like most of all the ripper and torso victims, and McKenzie just a couple months before.

To me its like the Torsorippers first "kiss" once he has a victim down. wherever that may be.

Interestingly, Abby, so far two people think the murder was unrelated to either series. Someone else was chopping up women and gashing them open?

[Abby Normal]

there are so many similarities between the torso victims and ripper victims. and Pinchin IMHO is one of the stronger ones as shes found in ripper territory.
But to me one of the major links, which pinchin also has, is the vertical gash on the abdomen. like most of all the ripper and torso victims, and McKenzie just a couple months before.

To me its like the Torsorippers first "kiss" once he has a victim down. wherever that may be.

[Harry D]

*Ahem*

I SAID discuss.