The case evidence and its implications

[bolo]

Hi Fisherman,

Not present or not detectable? Which is it? The doctors reasoned that the cutting of the neck was the reason of death in most cases, although the 1873 torso was believed to possibly have died from two blows to the temple.

I donīt think that we should reason that an unknown cause of death equals a dissimilar cause of death. Somehow, that would not be factually correct, would it?

The actual injuries of the throats were not present since the torsos had no heads so the reasoning of the doctors was based on the condition of the heart and/or respiratory system, not on actual evidence. This makes it next to impossible to tell how the injuries looked like and whether they were similar to those of the Ripper victims.

All the Ripper victims except Stride received severe cuts to the throat that sometimes touched the vertebrae of the neck. Would it be factually correct to add a victim to the body count of a killer if an important part of his signature is missing? It probably would, but some doubts might remain.

Cheers,

Boris

[John G]

He's got to cut the body up up first which, if he's not used to it, would need some thinking through. If he's not a butcher (or similar), he may not have the right equipment, so that'll need sorting out. There's planning how to go about disposing of the body parts... waiting for the right moment(s) to do so... maybe getting hold of some kind of transport, even if it's only a wheelbarrow with some sacking thrown over it.

All kinds of practical reasons, before we need to reach for the "paraphilia" button.

But the Whitehall victim was stored for weeks. Why would it take him that long to find a wheelbarrow or a few tools? And Dr Hebbert was firmly of the view that the perpetrator exhibited a degree of skill in cutting up the bodies.

And as I've noted numerous times now, a defensive dismemberer will try and dispose of the body as expeditiously as possible. How does the Whitehall building site catacombs meet this criteria?

Here's another thing:

"The body is commonly dismembered into six pieces This is normally achieved by removing the head and neck at approximately the level of the 4th or 5th vertebrae, both arms through the proximal third of the humorous, and both legs through the upper part of the shaft of the femur, leaving the torso and pelvis as a single piece." (Rutty et al., 2017.)

Now, howling earth does separating the pelvic viscera from the torso meet that criteria (Whitehall)? In fact, presumably that would be a seriously bad idea, I.e. because it would presumably expose the internal organs:

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/books/all-that-remains-a-life-in-death-by-sue-black-review-a3830216.html

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,



The actual injuries of the throats were not present since the torsos had no heads so the reasoning of the doctors was based on the condition of the heart and/or respiratory system, not on actual evidence. This makes it next to impossible to tell how the injuries looked like and whether they were similar to those of the Ripper victims.

All the Ripper victims except Stride received severe cuts to the throat that sometimes touched the vertebrae of the neck. Would it be factually correct to add a victim to the body count of a killer if an important part of his signature is missing? It probably would, but some doubts might remain.

Cheers,

Boris

One would need to correctly establish that signature first, Bolo. And just because you think that the cutting of the neck in the Ripper cases belongs to that signature, we cannot be sure that this was so. It may well be that the neck cutting was a practicality, allowing for the killer to move on to the true signature.
At any rate, saying that the lack of factual evidence regarding what the torso victims died from is something that should make us accept that these victims died in a different manner than the Ripper victims is, excuse my French, bananas. It has no evidential value at all as an indication of dissimilar causes of death.
What we do have on record is how the 1873 victim was seemingly hung up and emptied of all blood. In that respect, we may also be talking about a practicality, albeit there is a fair chance the this was not the case of death. It nevertheless took care of the problem of having to deal with the blood, just as the cutting of the neck in the Ripper cases provided the killer with a dryer environment to work in.
But I am perfectly happy to admit that this is nothing but uninformed guesswork. I think we owe it to ourselves to acknowledge that when we enter the realms of speculation.

[Abby Normal]

But the Whitehall victim was stored for weeks. Why would it take him that long to find a wheelbarrow or a few tools? And Dr Hebbert was firmly of the view that the perpetrator exhibited a degree of skill in cutting up the bodies.

And as I've noted numerous times now, a defensive dismemberer will try and dispose of the body as expeditiously as possible. How does the Whitehall building site catacombs meet this criteria?

Here's another thing:

"The body is commonly dismembered into six pieces This is normally achieved by removing the head and neck at approximately the level of the 4th or 5th vertebrae, both arms through the proximal third of the humorous, and both legs through the upper part of the shaft of the femur, leaving the torso and pelvis as a single piece." (Rutty et al., 2017.)

Now, howling earth does separating the pelvic viscera from the torso meet that criteria (Whitehall)? In fact, presumably that would be a seriously bad idea, I.e. because it would presumably expose the internal organs:

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle...-a3830216.html

hi john

maybe because that's exactly what he wanted to do. It hasn't escaped me that this torso was divided in two, the part not found containing the sexual organs.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Fisherman,



The actual injuries of the throats were not present since the torsos had no heads so the reasoning of the doctors was based on the condition of the heart and/or respiratory system, not on actual evidence. This makes it next to impossible to tell how the injuries looked like and whether they were similar to those of the Ripper victims.

All the Ripper victims except Stride received severe cuts to the throat that sometimes touched the vertebrae of the neck. Would it be factually correct to add a victim to the body count of a killer if an important part of his signature is missing? It probably would, but some doubts might remain.

Cheers,

Boris

to add-a couple of the ripper victims had evidence of blows to the head also, as did one of the torsos as fish mentioned.
one of the most common ways a killer murders a woman is blunt force trauma to the head/face (punch or with a hard object) followed by strangulation to death. In the ripper cases some combination above was probably used followed by the throat cut to finish it and or bleed out the victim. given the torso evidence of a blow to the head also, not so much of a stretch to see this is how he rendered his victims also, and we know torsoman took of heads, so that he cut there throats also is a reasonable assumption.

plus we know the ripper more than likely used a ruse to get the victims where he wanted them, and it would appear torsoman did the same.

[Sam Flynn]

But the Whitehall victim was stored for weeks.

That's interesting, John, because I don't think too many of the other torso victims were kept that long, so we have to wonder why. Was the victim somehow "special" to the killer, e.g. a girlfriend or wife? Does this prolonged period of storage point to a different killer than the other torso cases? Either way, this doesn't really look like Jack the Ripper, does it?

Why would it take him that long to find a wheelbarrow or a few tools?

It wouldn't take that long to source a wheelbarrow or a good, sharp knife, but - as I suggested - there could have been many other practical reasons behind the delay.

[Sam Flynn]

maybe because that's exactly what he wanted to do. It hasn't escaped me that this torso was divided in two, the part not found containing the sexual organs.

The skull wasn't found either. Perhaps he was into necro-fellatio?

[bolo]

One would need to correctly establish that signature first, Bolo. And just because you think that the cutting of the neck in the Ripper cases belongs to that signature, we cannot be sure that this was so. It may well be that the neck cutting was a practicality, allowing for the killer to move on to the true signature.

At least four of the Ripper victims recieved severe cuts to the throat that sometimes went down to the spine, which is one of the injuries many people (including some of the doctors of the time) rate as a signature that links the cases and points to a serial killer at work. I don't think supporting this would mean going on a stretch.

At any rate, saying that the lack of factual evidence regarding what the torso victims died from is something that should make us accept that these victims died in a different manner than the Ripper victims is, excuse my French, bananas. It has no evidential value at all as an indication of dissimilar causes of death.
What we do have on record is how the 1873 victim was seemingly hung up and emptied of all blood. In that respect, we may also be talking about a practicality, albeit there is a fair chance the this was not the case of death. It nevertheless took care of the problem of having to deal with the blood, just as the cutting of the neck in the Ripper cases provided the killer with a dryer environment to work in.
But I am perfectly happy to admit that this is nothing but uninformed guesswork. I think we owe it to ourselves to acknowledge that when we enter the realms of speculation.

Call it bananas all you want, but in order to find out whether the Ripper and Torso killings were done by the same man or two (or more) different killers, we have to consider ALL differences and similarities there are. I'm just trying to go with the official documents/evidence we have, which tells us that the Torso victims may or may not have died from getting their throats cut but since the heads were missing, there was no way to tell for the doctors whether the throat cuts looked Ripper-like or not. So - like it or not, at least in terms of throat cuts, it's not possible to link the Ripper and Torso series because there simply is no proof that the cuts looked familiar in the latter.

[Stacker]

Could the heads of the Torso Killer Victims have simply drowned instead of washing ashore like everything else did if they were dumped into the Thames River too?

[Joshua Rogan]

On the subject of heads, I came across this mention of the disposal of one from a famous dismemberment murder from 1879.

"As in former Thames mysteries, any new discovery will be awaited with great interest. It will be recollected that in the case of the Richmond murder the head of Mrs. Thomas was never found. Kate Webster was entreated to say what she had done with it, and it is asserted that she kept the secret till just before she was executed, when she stated that she carefully dropped it between some supports of Old Battersea-bridge, down which it slid till it got to the bottom of the Thames. The secret was kept for several years, and we believe has never yet been published. It will be well, therefore, to search for any missing remains in this case in unsuspected nooks and corners."

As it turned out, however, the head was not actually dropped into the Thames, but buried in a pub's stables near the victim's home, and unearthed only recently in what is now David Attenborough's garden;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8618240/Head-found-in-David-Attenboroughs-garden-was-murder-victim.html

So....nothing to do with the torso cases, but at the least it shows that evidence can still turn up even after more than a century.

[jerryd]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster. Re Whitehall and the interpretation of what potentially occurred, I think there are three key issues that don't appear to have been discussed. Firstly, the lack of a uterus, the lack of a cause of death and the fact that the lady concerned was suffering from severe pleurisy when she died. Secondly, the cuts made to the body were both 'competent' and 'incompetent' (sorry I can't think of a better description but I think you get my drift). Thirdly, and I think most importantly in bringing the above two issues together is that the body had been coated with Condy's Fluid, better known today as Potassium Permanganate, which was readily available and used by everyone from housewives to undertakers as a preservative. It has a brown/red/purple hue which colours anything it touches. Now, if you wanted to be highly speculative, and bearing in mind the body parts had evidence of having been pressed down by a heavy object you [I]could wish to interpret [/I](ahem) the following......that the lady was pregnant, that her severe pleurisy weakened her to the point that she did not survive an illegal operation to remove the foetus. That the abortionist was part of a partnership or even a gang, and in order to dispose of the body more than one person (one with more medical knowledge, possibly the abortionist himself and one with less medical knowledge) dismembered her, hence the discrepancy in cuts. Storage of the body parts was necessary until such time as she could be moved and so she was placed in a tub or barrel or some such impliment and soaked in Condy's Fluid and a weight placed on her remains, both as a means to lessen the size for hiding and also to hide the remains. When she was eventually disposed of, again more than one person did this, hence the remains being able to be dumped in NSY. Just putting it out there....and please be gentle with me.

Hi New Ford,

Welcome and thanks for your first post!

Regarding the Whitehall torso and the "evidence of having been pressed down by a heavy object"? Where was this reported on? I have not heard that in regard to that particular case. In the Tottenham Court torso in 1884, there was evidence of that being done, though.

Also, in regard to Condy's Fluid. That chemical was used as a preservative, yes, but also to mask smell. If, as Gareth and others state, the idea was to get rid of the body, why not use Lime powder? Lime would cause the opposite effect on the remains and destroy the flesh and tissues.

Regarding the possibility the Whitehall victim was an abortion gone wrong. Would a woman wear a nice dress complete with a dress improver to attend an abortion procedure?

[Fisherman]

That's interesting, John, because I don't think too many of the other torso victims were kept that long, so we have to wonder why. Was the victim somehow "special" to the killer, e.g. a girlfriend or wife? Does this prolonged period of storage point to a different killer than the other torso cases? Either way, this doesn't really look like Jack the Ripper, does it?

There were three parts found from the Whitehall victim. The first was an arm, found in the Thames on the 11:th of September. Dr Nevill, who examined it, said that he believed that it had recently been amputated.
Two and a half weeks further down the line, on the 1:st of October, the torso was found in the vaults of the New Scotland Yard. Dr Bond was of the meaning that it had been in place there for quite some time, given the black stain it had set off on the wall behind it as it decomposed.
Lastly, a leg was found buried in the vaults, whether by accident or design, we cannot say. It was found on the 17:th of October.

Owing to the different conditions under which the parts were found, one in water, one in air and one in the ground, it is hard to say whether they were simultaneously dumped or not. Death was believed to have occurred in late August or early September. There was a dated newspaper found together with the bundled-up torso, dating from August the 24:th, giving us a starting point before which the murder could not have taken place. Obviously, it could have taken place any date AFTER the 24:th.

How all of this provides us with a certainty that the killer stored the parts for a given amount of time, I cannot see. The best implication we have that some amount of storing occurred is perhaps the Condys fluid addition, pointing to how the killer was trying to avoid any smell coming from the body. But one cannot presuppose that the fluid must have been added when the body had started decomposing, it could just as well have ben added as a precaution before such a time and there is of course the possibility that it was only added when the body was put in the vault, in order not to give it away.

You say that it does not look like something the Ripper would have done. Well, since he killed and left his prey lying in the street, it is of course self-evident that if he killed in premises the could be tied to himself, he needed to dispose of the body and thereby faced a different task.
I thought we had covered that part long ago.

[Fisherman]

At least four of the Ripper victims recieved severe cuts to the throat that sometimes went down to the spine, which is one of the injuries many people (including some of the doctors of the time) rate as a signature that links the cases and points to a serial killer at work. I don't think supporting this would mean going on a stretch.

It is not unreasonable at all to suggest that the neck cutting was part of the signature of the Ripper. Nor is it unreasonable to suggest that it was part of the signature of the Torso killer. What would be unreasonable would be to suggest that the measure as such can be used to tell the two series apart from each other. If the Torso victims had NOT had their heads taken off by severing the neck, it would have been a different matter. I would merrily accept that all of the canonicals had their necks cut. But then again, I would also point out that Tabram did not.

Call it bananas all you want, but in order to find out whether the Ripper and Torso killings were done by the same man or two (or more) different killers, we have to consider ALL differences and similarities there are. I'm just trying to go with the official documents/evidence we have, which tells us that the Torso victims may or may not have died from getting their throats cut but since the heads were missing, there was no way to tell for the doctors whether the throat cuts looked Ripper-like or not. So - like it or not, at least in terms of throat cuts, it's not possible to link the Ripper and Torso series because there simply is no proof that the cuts looked familiar in the latter.

I cannot remember denying that all the similarities and differences must be weighed in a comparison between the Ripper and the Torso killer. Can you remember me doing that?
I must disappoint you on your belief that there was no proof that the cuts to the necks were similar inbetween the Ripper and the Torso series, by the way. Phillips compared the cutting work on the necks inbetween the Pinchin Street victim and Mary Kelly:

The CORONER. - I should like to ask Dr. Phillips whether there is any similarity in the cutting off of the legs in this case and the one that was severed from the woman in Dorset-street?
Dr. Phillips. - I have not noticed any sufficient similarity to convince me it was the person who committed both mutilations, but the division of the neck and attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine are very similar to that which was effected in this case.

I am all for looking at the dissimilarities, Bolo. But I struggle to understand what kind of dissimilarity could weigh up the many specific and many times extremely rare similarities of the cases. Dissimilarities cannot do that in cases like these, unless they factually prove two killers.

Look at it like this - two murders are committed in the same town and at the same approximate time. Let's list a number of very large dissimilarities:

-Different gender of the victims
-Differing ages of the victims
-Victims from neigbourhoods far apart
-One criminal victim, one honest citizen
-One killed by gun, one by strangulation

Now, that is as far apart as two victims from the same town and time can come, right?

Now add one very odd similarity:
-Victims both had all their teeth pulled out by the killer

What happens, Bolo? Which of the indications will decide whether there was a connection, or not? Exactly, the tooth thing will rule the day!

Now, turn it around, and list similarities first:

-Victims had their teeth pulled out by the killer
-Victims had their abdominal walls cut away
-Victims had their fingernails painted red
-Victims had a shoestring tied around their pinkies
-Victims had their eyelids punctured

Now, lets try and weigh that up with a dissimilarity:

-Victims came from different parts of town

Surely the detectives would quickly see that there was no connection? Or?

This is why similarities rule these kinds of matters, if they are odd and peculiar. And cutting away the abdominal wall is as peculiar as it gets. Of course, taking out uteri and hearts and cutting from sternum to pelvis are not exactly run-of-the-mill measures either, are they?

[Fisherman]

Could the heads of the Torso Killer Victims have simply drowned instead of washing ashore like everything else did if they were dumped into the Thames River too?

Yes, of course they could have sunk to the bottom. They were a lot more dense than the rest of the parts.

[John G]

There were three parts found from the Whitehall victim. The first was an arm, found in the Thames on the 11:th of September. Dr Nevill, who examined it, said that he believed that it had recently been amputated.
Two and a half weeks further down the line, on the 1:st of October, the torso was found in the vaults of the New Scotland Yard. Dr Bond was of the meaning that it had been in place there for quite some time, given the black stain it had set off on the wall behind it as it decomposed.
Lastly, a leg was found buried in the vaults, whether by accident or design, we cannot say. It was found on the 17:th of October.

Owing to the different conditions under which the parts were found, one in water, one in air and one in the ground, it is hard to say whether they were simultaneously dumped or not. Death was believed to have occurred in late August or early September. There was a dated newspaper found together with the bundled-up torso, dating from August the 24:th, giving us a starting point before which the murder could not have taken place. Obviously, it could have taken place any date AFTER the 24:th.

How all of this provides us with a certainty that the killer stored the parts for a given amount of time, I cannot see. The best implication we have that some amount of storing occurred is perhaps the Condys fluid addition, pointing to how the killer was trying to avoid any smell coming from the body. But one cannot presuppose that the fluid must have been added when the body had started decomposing, it could just as well have ben added as a precaution before such a time and there is of course the possibility that it was only added when the body was put in the vault, in order not to give it away.

You say that it does not look like something the Ripper would have done. Well, since he killed and left his prey lying in the street, it is of course self-evident that if he killed in premises the could be tied to himself, he needed to dispose of the body and thereby faced a different task.
I thought we had covered that part long ago.

But he didn't need to retain the body for 6 to 8 weeks.