Torso Killer discussion from Millwood Thread

[Fisherman]

Still peddling the same old distortions, half-truths and generalisations I see.

Gareth, you really cannot claim that it is a near certainty that the killer lived near Battersea and that it is equally a near certainty that the dismemberment and the dumpings were purely practical - and thereafter accuse me of distorting and serving half-truths. You are effectively the one trying to remould what happened, not me. People will be aware of that. There are no "distortions" or "half-truths" involved in what I wrote. Not are there any generalisations, since I do not claim that the specific matters occurred in each case. And they don´t have to - once you cut away the abdominal wall, it is quite enough to do so in one case to show that you have such an intent.

Now, try and compose yourself and debate the errand honestly instead of resorting to these antics, please!

[Fisherman]

Fisherman, not only was a body part found (dropped accidentally?) on the Shelley property, but Percy Jr was buried with a heart.. Supposedly his fathers heart whom had been dead 60 years already. He died in December 1889 around the time the Ripper disappeared. Given his family background as Frankenstein's son lol I'm surprised no one has made the connection. What if the heart he was buried with was Mary Kelley's and he was either the Torso killer, the Ripper, or both?

I´ll leave that for you to sort out, methinks. It´s a joy to see that every angle is covered, at any rate!

[Fisherman]

Well, at least in case of the Pinchin St. and New Scotland Yard torsi, the killer did just that, he dumped one more or less big part of the bodies on different locations and not in one place. This tells me that the dismemberment was mostly done for practical reasons which does not mean there wouldn't have been ritualistic elements involved in the whole process but I don't think it was cutting down the bodies to easy-to-transport portions. In my opinion, a possible ritual part took place post-mortem, pre-dismemberment.

Welcome to my world, Bolo! This is EXACTLY what I believe took place. The murders had a ritualistic element to them, and once the killer had taken care of that matter, there would always be the practical matter to dispose of the leftovers after the party. Meaning that once the body had filled it´s purpose, played it´s role, the killer could not keep it at his premises. So he had to get rid of it.
However, I believe that he used that practical demand to send messages. One such message would be to the police: Look what I can do in your own cellar vault! Other parts may have played similar roles, like for example how the Shelley part may have been an example of black humour, how the dumping in Battersea park may have been a reminder of where the killer met Jackson (as suggested by Joshua Rogan), how the dumping in Pinchin Street just happens to denote a site where I believe the killer had grown up and where his mother had lived many a time, how the dumping in Fitzroy Square may have been a finger in the air towards the police who patrolled the premises and so on. Plus I am suggesting that since the killer would have found out that his parts did NOT disappear but instead float and be found (and he may well have known this from the outset, of course), just about all of them, he proceeded to send shockwawes through London by letting them float ashore along the banks of the mightiest metropolis in the world: "I can do this and you can´t stop me!"
In many ways, killing out in the open streets is also an example of how the killer owned the stage, set his own rules and killed in public - and once more, "You cannot stop me!"

The one objection I would make would be to say that the ritual was - if I am correct - not only about pre-dismemberment. It actually involved parts of the dismemberments. Not all of them, parts of them. The sawed off limbs 1873 were ritualistic, the dismembered joints were not, if you ask me. But I will not go further into that as of now.

[Fisherman]

Good question, Christer. I think the Whitehall woman could have been cut up somewhere inside the expansive basement of the Police Building. I'm thinking the torso was moved around depending on where the men were working. At least 6 men swear the torso was not in the vault on that weekend. Henry Edge is adamant it wasn't there and he was recalled to swear he did not see it when he was in that very corner with a struck match. Then, on Monday, it appears and Wildbore sees it. Twice that day. And once more the next day. Then he reports it to the Foreman.

When Jasper Waring had Smoker sniffing around, the dog hit on other areas of loose dirt but nothing was found. I believe these areas at one time may have contained parts of the body. That vault became an area of attention because the surveyor and others were going to be in there for measurements. That was the time to move the body that lay upon the wall to another area in the basement. The vault was not visited on a daily basis by many, other than Wildbore and Lawrence, because they decided to keep tools in there rather than the newly built locker in another vault. The workmen were looked suspiciously upon. They were watched outside of work.

Echo

London, U.K.

10 October 1888

"The fact that everyone is of opinion that no stranger could have put the parcel in such and out-of-the-way corner considerably narrows the inquiry; and on Monday week other workmen will be called who will prove that the parcel was not in the vault on the Saturday before the Monday when it was found."

As far as Elizabeth Jackson goes. I guess she could have been cut up in the Park. The area where the upper torso was found was said to be an area not too frequently visited by employees. The Police Buildings were near completion at this point, so doubtful the basement could have still been used.

As you know, we can speculate until we turn blue, but there is not enough known about little details that could break the case. Wildbore had a home in Battersea. His route to work may have taken him across the Albert Bridge and down Grosvenor Road past the Shelley House, past the timber wharf where the Pimlico arm was found etc etc. Did his home have a workshop in the backyard? I can't answer that. He was a professional carpenter so it very well may have. He would have had saws at work. He probably had saws at home. Was he handy with a knife? Who knows?

All I DO know is he was one of a very few men that knew how to safely get into that vault in all lighting conditions. He located the torso and held back telling anyone after seeing it 2 times the day before. At inquest nobody smelled the body yet several press reports state Wildbore himself said it stunk when he examined it. Somebody seemed to be pouring Condy's fluid on it also. When would someone be able to do that?

Lots of questions left unanswered.

Well, I still think it very unlikely that a killer working in the NSY who otherwise made use of the river and a number of landlocked places away from the NSY, would point a finger at himself by using those premises for dumping a body. That said, I think you make as good a case as can be made for Wildbore. It just does not amount to a good enough case for me so far.

As for the Battersea Park having been the premises where Jackson was cut up, I think that unlikely. There would have been traces of it, not least a lot of blood, left after the deed, and no such traces were found.

Are you saying that the body was sprinkled with Condy´s fluid on a daily basis or something like that? Or that it had happened close in time to the finding of it?

[RockySullivan]

Well, I still think it very unlikely that a killer working in the NSY who otherwise made use of the river and a number of landlocked places away from the NSY, would point a finger at himself by using those premises for dumping a body. That said, I think you make as good a case as can be made for Wildbore. It just does not amount to a good enough case for me so far.

Because you refuse to acknowledge that the body parts could just have been temporarily stored there or planned to be buried and never found.

[Fisherman]

Because you refuse to acknowledge that the body parts could just have been temporarily stored there or planned to be buried and never found.

You are welcome to produce any material in which I "refuse to acknowledge" that material could have been placed in the vault or that it was planned that they should be buried there. Contrary to that rather offensive claim, I think the point Jerry makes about the dog perhaps feeling the scent of earlier stored material is perfectly viable. Where you got your nonsense from will be interesting to see, together with your admission that there is no refusal along the lines you describe on my part on record anywhere.

The material never found from the Whitehall victim could have been disposed of in the river, just as it could have been dumped elsewhere, including in the vault.

The scent the dog felt could of course also have come from the torso or the leg having been left on the ground in other positions than the once they were subsequently found in. The items found would have been bulky, and it would be perfectly logical if they were put on the floor first, whereafter the killer decided where to leave them.

In conclusion, far from what you claim, I DO acknowledge that the body parts not found in the Whitehall case CAN have been stored in the vault originally, just as I acknowledge that there CAN have been a plan to bury the parts in the vault at one time. And nevertheless, I STILL don't think that Wildbore makes a good enough case for me so far. If he wanted to bury the parts, it seems he would have had ample time to do so, to begin with, so I don't think that is a good suggestion. If he stored all the parts in the vault originally, and smuggled them out to throw them in the river or dispose of them in any other way, I think it is a tad strange that he didn't do away with the torso and the leg in the same manner. What killer who wants to hide what he has done, decides that he needs to clear out the evidence, only to then come up with the idea to leave one or two parts of it THAT HE "FINDS" HIMSELF....?
In my world, that does not add up very well.

I am sure, though, that Jerry will pursue his man and make a very good job of it. Plus I have the pleasant feeling that he won't fling unsubstantiated accusations against people who do not agree 100 per cent about his take.

[Sam Flynn]

Or simply known as, similarities, in the real world.

Only if you overlook the details.

[Abby Normal]

it's called dispersal, meant to delay or prevent the finding of the body parts and hinder identification of the victim.

delay possibly-prevent, no. especially if your throwing it into someones yard!
the parts thrown into the river-yes, perhaps, the major part of the torso thrown into the park-no.
and again-why hold onto the last part, a leg, for half a mile, especially after you've dumped the rest into the river and the river is still the same distance away on the other side of the road than said persons yard?!?

[Abby Normal]

Only if you overlook the details.

only if you overlook the overall similarities and the details that you don't like.

[Abby Normal]

Welcome to my world, Bolo! This is EXACTLY what I believe took place. The murders had a ritualistic element to them, and once the killer had taken care of that matter, there would always be the practical matter to dispose of the leftovers after the party. Meaning that once the body had filled it´s purpose, played it´s role, the killer could not keep it at his premises. So he had to get rid of it.
However, I believe that he used that practical demand to send messages. One such message would be to the police: Look what I can do in your own cellar vault! Other parts may have played similar roles, like for example how the Shelley part may have been an example of black humour, how the dumping in Battersea park may have been a reminder of where the killer met Jackson (as suggested by Joshua Rogan), how the dumping in Pinchin Street just happens to denote a site where I believe the killer had grown up and where his mother had lived many a time, how the dumping in Fitzroy Square may have been a finger in the air towards the police who patrolled the premises and so on. Plus I am suggesting that since the killer would have found out that his parts did NOT disappear but instead float and be found (and he may well have known this from the outset, of course), just about all of them, he proceeded to send shockwawes through London by letting them float ashore along the banks of the mightiest metropolis in the world: "I can do this and you can´t stop me!"
In many ways, killing out in the open streets is also an example of how the killer owned the stage, set his own rules and killed in public - and once more, "You cannot stop me!"

The one objection I would make would be to say that the ritual was - if I am correct - not only about pre-dismemberment. It actually involved parts of the dismemberments. Not all of them, parts of them. The sawed off limbs 1873 were ritualistic, the dismembered joints were not, if you ask me. But I will not go further into that as of now.

bingo fish

and I also find it interesting that the "dumping" of parts/torsos also shows a kind of escalation-they get more weird and public as the series goes along, coinciding with the ripper public displays. and then apparently ending about the same time with pinchin and Mackenzie.

[Abby Normal]

Good question, Christer. I think the Whitehall woman could have been cut up somewhere inside the expansive basement of the Police Building. I'm thinking the torso was moved around depending on where the men were working. At least 6 men swear the torso was not in the vault on that weekend. Henry Edge is adamant it wasn't there and he was recalled to swear he did not see it when he was in that very corner with a struck match. Then, on Monday, it appears and Wildbore sees it. Twice that day. And once more the next day. Then he reports it to the Foreman.

When Jasper Waring had Smoker sniffing around, the dog hit on other areas of loose dirt but nothing was found. I believe these areas at one time may have contained parts of the body. That vault became an area of attention because the surveyor and others were going to be in there for measurements. That was the time to move the body that lay upon the wall to another area in the basement. The vault was not visited on a daily basis by many, other than Wildbore and Lawrence, because they decided to keep tools in there rather than the newly built locker in another vault. The workmen were looked suspiciously upon. They were watched outside of work.

Echo

London, U.K.

10 October 1888

"The fact that everyone is of opinion that no stranger could have put the parcel in such and out-of-the-way corner considerably narrows the inquiry; and on Monday week other workmen will be called who will prove that the parcel was not in the vault on the Saturday before the Monday when it was found."

As far as Elizabeth Jackson goes. I guess she could have been cut up in the Park. The area where the upper torso was found was said to be an area not too frequently visited by employees. The Police Buildings were near completion at this point, so doubtful the basement could have still been used.

As you know, we can speculate until we turn blue, but there is not enough known about little details that could break the case. Wildbore had a home in Battersea. His route to work may have taken him across the Albert Bridge and down Grosvenor Road past the Shelley House, past the timber wharf where the Pimlico arm was found etc etc. Did his home have a workshop in the backyard? I can't answer that. He was a professional carpenter so it very well may have. He would have had saws at work. He probably had saws at home. Was he handy with a knife? Who knows?

All I DO know is he was one of a very few men that knew how to safely get into that vault in all lighting conditions. He located the torso and held back telling anyone after seeing it 2 times the day before. At inquest nobody smelled the body yet several press reports state Wildbore himself said it stunk when he examined it. Somebody seemed to be pouring Condy's fluid on it also. When would someone be able to do that?

Lots of questions left unanswered.

brilliant Jer, as usual!

[Abby Normal]

Welcome to my world, Bolo! This is EXACTLY what I believe took place. The murders had a ritualistic element to them, and once the killer had taken care of that matter, there would always be the practical matter to dispose of the leftovers after the party. Meaning that once the body had filled it´s purpose, played it´s role, the killer could not keep it at his premises. So he had to get rid of it.
However, I believe that he used that practical demand to send messages. One such message would be to the police: Look what I can do in your own cellar vault! Other parts may have played similar roles, like for example how the Shelley part may have been an example of black humour, how the dumping in Battersea park may have been a reminder of where the killer met Jackson (as suggested by Joshua Rogan), how the dumping in Pinchin Street just happens to denote a site where I believe the killer had grown up and where his mother had lived many a time, how the dumping in Fitzroy Square may have been a finger in the air towards the police who patrolled the premises and so on. Plus I am suggesting that since the killer would have found out that his parts did NOT disappear but instead float and be found (and he may well have known this from the outset, of course), just about all of them, he proceeded to send shockwawes through London by letting them float ashore along the banks of the mightiest metropolis in the world: "I can do this and you can´t stop me!"
In many ways, killing out in the open streets is also an example of how the killer owned the stage, set his own rules and killed in public - and once more, "You cannot stop me!"

The one objection I would make would be to say that the ritual was - if I am correct - not only about pre-dismemberment. It actually involved parts of the dismemberments. Not all of them, parts of them. The sawed off limbs 1873 were ritualistic, the dismembered joints were not, if you ask me. But I will not go further into that as of now.

hi fish
one thing-wouldn't the disarticulated joints point more to a ritual aspect, not the sawed off ones, as there was seemingly more care and time to disarticulate other than saw??

[Sam Flynn]

only if you overlook the overall similarities and the details that you don't like.

Details you don't like... like heart AND lungs removed in one of the torso cases; heart only in Kelly's case. Details like uteri removed in a minority of the torso cases (and one of those with a baby inside it) versus uteri removed in a majority of the Ripper cases (100% of them if we exclude Stride). Details like overwhelming majority of torso murders in West London, versus ALL the Ripper murders in a small part of East London...

I could go on, but believe me, I'm not ignoring details. On the contrary, I'm taking them ALL into account.

[Abby Normal]

Details you don't like... like heart AND lungs removed in one of the torso cases; heart only in Kelly's case. Details like uteri removed in a minority of the torso cases (and one of those with a baby inside it) versus uteri removed in a majority of the Ripper cases (100% of them if we exclude Stride). Details like overwhelming majority of torso murders in West London, versus ALL the Ripper murders in a small part of East London...

I could go on, but believe me, I'm not ignoring details. On the contrary, I'm taking them ALL into account.

yes you drill down on the details to minutia until you find a difference. I fear we may have to start counting the number of molecules in the flaps of stomach flesh removed from Chapman, Kelly and Jackson!

[Fisherman]

hi fish
one thing-wouldn't the disarticulated joints point more to a ritual aspect, not the sawed off ones, as there was seemingly more care and time to disarticulate other than saw??

One would think so, would one not? However, my answer is no, the ritual required the sawed off limbs and not the disjointed ones, if I am on the money. And to be frank, my personal belief is that the disarticulations may have taken less time than the sawing, which I imagine was done with great care.