Torso Killer discussion from Millwood Thread

[Fisherman]

For that matter, why did he even cross that damn bridge in the first place? Logically, he would have come from either the north or the south side of it, and whichever applies, it is selfevident that he probably had his lair/lodgings on the side he came from. So why in the whole world would he cross the bridge in toto, instead of just chucking the parts in and RETURN?

If he came from the south side, actually crossed the bridge and proceeded half a mile before he threw the leg into the Shelley garden, then there can be little doubt that it was something he aimed to do from the outset, methinks. Also, if he DID come from that side, it seems he was so anxious to get rid of his parts that he started throwing them away even before he had reached out over the water. Does such a squeamish man, speeding up the process all he can, proceed over the bridge in itīs entire length, carrying a dismembered leg on his person, and walking half a mile from the bridge to throw it into a garden? Not very likely.

[RockySullivan]

For that matter, why did he even cross that damn bridge in the first place? Logically, he would have come from either the north or the south side of it, and whichever applies, it is selfevident that he probably had his lair/lodgings on the side he came from. So why in the whole world would he cross the bridge in toto, instead of just chucking the parts in and RETURN?

If he came from the south side, actually crossed the bridge and proceeded half a mile before he threw the leg into the Shelley garden, then there can be little doubt that it was something he aimed to do from the outset, methinks. Also, if he DID come from that side, it seems he was so anxious to get rid of his parts that he started throwing them away even before he had reached out over the water. Does such a squeamish man, speeding up the process all he can, proceed over the bridge in itīs entire length, carrying a dismembered leg on his person, and walking half a mile from the bridge to throw it into a garden? Not very likely.

unless of course the man needs to cross the bridge to get to the other side.

[Fisherman]

unless of course the man needs to cross the bridge to get to the other side.

I would have thought that goes without saying, actually. But one must accept that logic dictates that he arrived to the bridge from the side where he had cut up Jackson. It MUST not be so, but any other suggestion is by nature awkward since it would include a previous river crossing with no dumping made.

So if I am correct and he arrived at the bridge from the side where he had cut up Jackson - what possible reasons would he have for crossing the bridge? Why would he not return back the same way he came, minimizing his exposure on the bridge?

And why would he not dump all the parts at the beginning of the bridge? What possessed him to bring a leg - or a torso section - all the way over the bridge, when he could have dumped either of these parts at the beginning of the bridge? Why cross over the whole bridge with that part, whichever one of them it was? If he began in Chelsea, there is of course the possibility that he dumped that leg first of all, long before he reached the bridge - but when he DID, why would he not chuck the rest in the water pronto and be done with it? If he came from the other side, why did he get it into his head to dump everything but the leg, hold on to it for half a mile and only then throw it over the fence to a private estate? And why THAT estate, when there were others by itīs side?

Surely, things like these can never be the likeliest thing to do for a man who is in a haste to rid himself of incriminating evidence?

[Debra A]

Was the parcel found at the front of the house, do you know? Judging from old maps and street-view (so I could easily be wrong), the front of the house just had railings protecting a drop to the basement, not really the place for a hedge. Unless possibly there was one outside of the railings. The photo posted by Jerry was taken from the back of the house, and shows an impressively tall hedge to the side, which separates the garden from the substantial grounds of the Chelsea Hospital. Could this be where the leg was tossed over?

We should probably start a new thread or find an old one for this discussion but I can't be bothered...so-
I was looking at an old postcard site and they listed an undated promotional postcard by Daneshill Brick & Tile Works, Ltd., Basingstoke, entitled:

Niche with 1ū" Moulded “Daneshill” Bricks at “Shelley House,” Chelsea

The niche is pictured and corresponds exactly to the niche on the side of the corner house directly before #1 Embankment Gardens. Is this where you placed it?

[Kattrup]

Basically, it is impossible to predict how a part in the Thames will float and where it will end up unless we use a very short period of time. Just as I said in my post to Gareth, the incoming tide can cause parts to drift westwards. Can, that is; it all depends on where on the surface they float. I am a keen fisherman myself, and I know that even in non-tidal rivers, there are all sorts of streams running in all sorts of directions. When flyfishing, a fly placed on the surface can seem to end up at the approximate same spot two throws in a row - but if there is just a very small deviation, the stream may carry it in very varying directions.

I would think that what can be suggested are very rough general lines only, nothing more than so. I do, however, believe that the parts were dumped at the same occasion, since it would be impractical and dangerous not to do so.

How short a period would you think? 5-10 minutes - or more?

Do you think no-one would be able to predict where the parts would turn up?

[Sam Flynn]

I do, however, believe that the parts were dumped at the same occasion, since it would be impractical and dangerous not to do so.

I don't see anything particularly impractical or dangerous in going for a quiet stroll in the dead of night to drop off one or two pieces at a time.

[Joshua Rogan]

We should probably start a new thread or find an old one for this discussion but I can't be bothered...so-
I was looking at an old postcard site and they listed an undated promotional postcard by Daneshill Brick & Tile Works, Ltd., Basingstoke, entitled:

Niche with 1ū" Moulded “Daneshill” Bricks at “Shelley House,” Chelsea

The niche is pictured and corresponds exactly to the niche on the side of the corner house directly before #1 Embankment Gardens. Is this where you placed it?

Wow, you look at some niche websites! Not that I can talk, I was just reading one about a WREN who was stationed in Shelley House during the war; she was in charge of pay for the crews of motor torpedo boats (which, incidentally, were built by Thorneycroft at Chiswick, the very spot where Druitt's body was found).
Well spotted though. Yes, that corner house I believe is the Shelley House. The side seems to have the same railings and drop to the basement as the front, but the hedge visible in Jerry's 1909 photo probably extended back from that odd freestanding bit of wall visible to the right.
Shame the statue seems to have disappeared, along with the iron fire escape at the back (also visible in Jerry's photo), I suspect they went toward the war effort. But at least we know what bricks it's made from.

[jerryd]

I simply don't know, JR. It might well be. Jerry is probably the best person to answer that. I found the newspaper description that mentioned that the house fronted the embankment and had tall trees and railings was all. It's been 15 years since I first read some of this stuff and topography is not my thing at all!

Hi Debs,

There were two Shelley houses in the area. The "other one" was their theatre on Tite Street which later became Shelley Court. The one in question, on the embankment, is precisely where Joshua has it pegged on his map.



We know from your research that Claude Mellor had disembarked from a steamship at a Chelsea Pier. Upon walking along the embankment he approached the Shelley house where he saw a partially concealed large package in the underbrush of the garden. He located PC Jones (182B) and they proceeded to the estate and approached through the stables and over to the railing where the parcel was thrown over the bushes. It was determined the parcel could not have been pushed through the railing from the estate side but may have been placed there from the embankment side or thrown over the bushes. A later discovery revealed the bush tops were bent and broken. So, to me, because of the mention of approaching through the stables, it seems the garden was on the property itself, where the house stood.

In later years, Harry St.John Hornby stated he lived in a cottage situated in the garden of the Shelley Estate. This shows it was a rather expansive estate fronting the embankment with a large garden attached to the property.

https://ilab.org/sites/default/files...denecatpdf.pdf (pages 6 and 7) Picture of the Cottage

Nice picture of the niche you found earlier too, Debs. Thanks for posting it!

[jerryd]

It puzzles me that Mellor just happened to see the parcel. The bushes seemed to be somewhat dense. He must have been searching hard for missing body parts. It's interesting how the journalists were so involved in this case and the Whitehall case (Jasper Waring). And then Mellor, again, in the Pinchin case.

[jerryd]

So if I am correct and he arrived at the bridge from the side where he had cut up Jackson - what possible reasons would he have for crossing the bridge? Why would he not return back the same way he came, minimizing his exposure on the bridge?

I believe he did, Christer. He may have traveled one way over Albert Bridge on his way to work at the new police offices and then the other way over the bridge on his way home on Maysoule Road.

[Debra A]

Wow, you look at some niche websites! Not that I can talk, I was just reading one about a WREN who was stationed in Shelley House during the war; she was in charge of pay for the crews of motor torpedo boats (which, incidentally, were built by Thorneycroft at Chiswick, the very spot where Druitt's body was found).
Well spotted though. Yes, that corner house I believe is the Shelley House. The side seems to have the same railings and drop to the basement as the front, but the hedge visible in Jerry's 1909 photo probably extended back from that odd freestanding bit of wall visible to the right.
Shame the statue seems to have disappeared, along with the iron fire escape at the back (also visible in Jerry's photo), I suspect they went toward the war effort. But at least we know what bricks it's made from.

You're easily distracted too, eh? Interesting information though. Thanks JR. I had wondered if the garden area in front of the Embankment Gardens houses had been much larger and extended towards the Shelley house and been part of the gardens?

[Debra A]

It puzzles me that Mellor just happened to see the parcel. The bushes seemed to be somewhat dense. He must have been searching hard for missing body parts. It's interesting how the journalists were so involved in this case and the Whitehall case (Jasper Waring). And then Mellor, again, in the Pinchin case.

I think many people were involved in a determined search after a couple of portions of Elizabeth's remains had turned up. Perhaps there was a co-ordinated search? The Royal Human Society were involved in searches weren't they? But yes, teh journalists certainly were well represented in the finds.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs,

There were two Shelley houses in the area. The "other one" was their theatre on Tite Street which later became Shelley Court. The one in question, on the embankment, is precisely where Joshua has it pegged on his map.



We know from your research that Claude Mellor had disembarked from a steamship at a Chelsea Pier. Upon walking along the embankment he approached the Shelley house where he saw a partially concealed large package in the underbrush of the garden. He located PC Jones (182B) and they proceeded to the estate and approached through the stables and over to the railing where the parcel was thrown over the bushes. It was determined the parcel could not have been pushed through the railing from the estate side but may have been placed there from the embankment side or thrown over the bushes. A later discovery revealed the bush tops were bent and broken. So, to me, because of the mention of approaching through the stables, it seems the garden was on the property itself, where the house stood.

In later years, Harry St.John Hornby stated he lived in a cottage situated in the garden of the Shelley Estate. This shows it was a rather expansive estate fronting the embankment with a large garden attached to the property.

https://ilab.org/sites/default/files...denecatpdf.pdf (pages 6 and 7) Picture of the Cottage

Nice picture of the niche you found earlier too, Debs. Thanks for posting it!

Thanks Jerry! I couldn't get see the estate on the link but I trust it was just as you said.
I found an old photograph of Chelsea Embankment Gardens. I assume that they were right next to the Shelley house and removed or made smaller when the Embankment Gardens Rd was built? I hope I am not off with the loaction. I posted the old pic anyway.
The Chelsea Embankment Gardens were classed in the same category as parkland and covered in new 1891 bylaws, some concerning illegal dumping in gardens and parkland. Batterea Park is also mentioned. I wonder if the same people were responsible for the maintenance/upkeep of both?

[Debra A]

Never mind- it looks like Chelsea Embankment Gardens are on Cheyne Walk, so not the same area as the named Road

[Fisherman]

How short a period would you think? 5-10 minutes - or more?

Do you think no-one would be able to predict where the parts would turn up?

There are two tides a day in the Thames, so that it the span of time I am thinking of.

Predicting where the parts would turn up would be a very hard thing to do, on the best of days. Of course, some people would be better suited to do it than others, but even the lightermen of the river would be unable to be exact in their predictions.