Ripper Victims?

[lynn cates]

blackmail

Hello Tom. Blackmail seems a sensible angle for some of these murders. I find many cases of blackmail given in Campbell's book.

Good luck with research.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

yes all these JOE AVERAGE suspects look different, but only really their clothing, these suspects are thus open to interpretation, so with an error of maybe 50%, we have BLOTCHY FACE, BROAD SHOULDERS, SAILOR BOY, that could all be the same person......

And what about the man William Marshall saw with Stride about 11:45 pm?

"...He did not see the man's face distinctly, but he noticed that he was dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers, and was wearing a brown cap with a small peak, somewhat like what a sailor would wear. The man's height was about 5ft 6in; he was middle aged, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He was not like a man who did hard work, nor was he like a sailor, but he had more the appearance of a clerk than anything else witness could suggest..."

Which one would you match him to?

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Wick,

This reminds me. Weren't you talking about the possibility that Lawende was asked somewhat 'leading questions' regarding the man he saw? You should check out Smith's memoirs and what he has to say about questioning Lawende, as he actually mentions the use of leading questions. Also, your mention of Marshall reminds me of my research for my Stride articles. I read all the different versions of Baxter's questioning of Marshall, and the longer ones reveal not only very leading questions, but a very pompous and condescending attitude towards Marshall. Definitely one of Baxter's weaker moments. It was also a reminder to me how condensed most of the inquest transcripts are in newspapers and how sometimes we're given the end result, but not all the questioning that led up to it, which could have bearing on the validity of said end result.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

And what about the man William Marshall saw with Stride about 11:45 pm?

"...He did not see the man's face distinctly, but he noticed that he was dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers, and was wearing a brown cap with a small peak, somewhat like what a sailor would wear. The man's height was about 5ft 6in; he was middle aged, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He was not like a man who did hard work, nor was he like a sailor, but he had more the appearance of a clerk than anything else witness could suggest..."

Which one would you match him to?

Regards, Jon S.

no idea, but he isn't the same sailor boy that was with Eddowes...because this is the guy that said ``you'd say anything but your prayers``, ok i've made a mistake, this isn't GH/sailor boy ..... your description is far better detailed than mine, most odd... why am i missing this info !!!!!

this guy is too old and maybe too fat to be the Eddowes suspect.

[Wickerman]

Hi Tom, Malcolm.

Yes Tom, I suggested that due to Lawende not being able to give a complete description at the Inquest, we do not know how well he saw the Redneck-man.

The first description of 'Redneck' was published on Oct. 2nd,...

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

...yet it had not come from Lawende. The only one of the three witnesses who was talking, was Harris. Lawende had been 'hushed-up' and sequestered away from the public & press, Levy was refusing to talk.
Therefore Harris is the most likely source.

The Oct. 2nd description (above) made no mention of Redneck looking like a sailor.


The police release (Swanson's) of Oct. 19th is the first and only time the "Appearance of a sailor" is mentioned.

"age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."


Many years later at the time of Sadler's 'identification' another copy of Redneck was released...

"...aged from thirty to thirty-five; height 5ft 7in, with brown hair and big moustache; dressed respectably. Wore pea jacket, muffler, and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material.".

No mention of looking like a sailor.


In 1892 another version of the Mitre Sq. suspect, Redneck, hit the press.

"A man of thirty-five, standing 5ft 7in to 5ft 8in, rather square shoulders, clean shaven with the exception of a heavy moustache, inclining to be sandy."

Still no mention of Redneck looking like a sailor.


Where did the idea come from?

It is only in the police version where "appearance of a sailor" is used.

I posted the Marshall 'suspect' partly because in this description it is quite clear that a man "can" wear a cap "with a peak like a sailor", yet "not" have the appearance of a sailor.

The question then arises, was this "appearance of a sailor" an erroneous police assumption all along?

Redneck may not have looked like a sailor, as is demonstrated by the Marshall 'suspect'.

Once again, the Marshall Suspect.
"...He did not see the man's face distinctly, but he noticed that he was dressed in a black cutaway coat and dark trousers, and was wearing a brown cap with a small peak, somewhat like what a sailor would wear. The man's height was about 5ft 6in; he was middle aged, rather stout, and appeared decently dressed. He was not like a man who did hard work, nor was he like a sailor, but he had more the appearance of a clerk than anything else witness could suggest..."

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. Very interesting information you have here. Would be extra handy if you provided the sources for each. It seems that it was usual for people to be asked 'what profession did he appear to work in?' and the if the witness wasn't sure, he'd be given a multiple choice to pick from, inevitably including 'clerk' and 'sailor' amongst others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Are they really so different?

Mitre Square Man: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak

Pipeman: 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Two suspects, both around the same age, similar height, fair/brown hair and moustache.

Remarkable that all these years writers have been comparing BS Man to Lawende's man, but no one has pointed this out before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Lawende's man is irrefutably more similar to Schwartz's broad-shouldered man than the "pipeman", who was obviously taller and had completely different headgear. There is really nothing to be concerned about as far as the 19th October article is concerned. It appeared in the Police Gazette, thus assuring us that no skullduggery occurred; it was Lawende's full description, as related by the police. And fortunately, for those who believe Stride was a ripper victim, "sailor man" and "broad-shoulders" mesh up very closely in terms of general appearance (age, height, dress, hat etc). The worst thing the Stride-as-ripper-victim proponents could possibly do, in my opinion, is to focus inordinately on "Pipeman" as a viable suspect (which, in comparison to broad-shoulders, he transparently isn't). Unless Schwartz lied, Broad-shoulders is the obvious killer of Stride - definitely. He was observed attacking Stride at the location in which she died, and around the accepted time of death.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. Very interesting information you have here. Would be extra handy if you provided the sources for each.

Not a problem Tom.

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Joseph_Lawende.html

It seems that it was usual for people to be asked 'what profession did he appear to work in?' and the if the witness wasn't sure, he'd be given a multiple choice to pick from, inevitably including 'clerk' and 'sailor' amongst others.

Actually Tom I think this is something we are no longer familiar with. As a Brit I can tell you that it was customary in England for the layperson to dress according to your status in life.
A Banker, a Clerk, a Solicitor, a labourer, Farmer, Gamekeeper, Publican, Maid, Doctor, Midwife, etc. all were expected simply by customary tradition to dress according to your position.
So the witness would not need to answer a sequence of questions he would already know that 'how a person dressed' was a significant contribution to his identification.
The Brits were an intensely 'class conscious' society.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ben, no need to get defensive. I pasted two descriptions and pointed out the similarities, of which there are many. I was mainly doing it to make a point to Malcolm who stated there was no resemblance between Lawende's man and Pipeman, and yet we have two men described around the same aged, same hair, and only 2". In the pantheon of witness descriptions, these two are quite alike. As Wick pointed out, that description may have come from someone other than Lawende.

Regarding the Stride murder, we have a man pull Stride by the arm and we have another man chase Schwartz. The two may or may not have been working together. Your scenario seems to only consider the one option (BS Man as Stride's lone killer, Pipeman as hapless passerby).

And you seem to be saying that BS Man and Lawende's man were dressed alike?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Mitre Square Man: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak

Pipeman: 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Two suspects, both around the same age, similar height, fair/brown hair and moustache.

Remarkable that all these years writers have been comparing BS Man to Lawende's man, but no one has pointed this out before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

YES i understand what you're saying, but to be Lawende's suspect, Pipeman would need to have changed his hat/scalf, a sailors hat isn't as tall as Pipeman's in profile, so this might make the suspect appear shorter.....

the most accurate description is Marshall's, which points towards someone like a younger Captain Mannering from Dads Army.....40 short and fat, and as if he hasn't done a days work in his life..... 5ft 6'' now that is short!.... a bank clerk.

pipeman or BS could be the Eddowes suspect, but they'd need to change for later on......but JTR could also be unrelated as well!

ok, it seems like either BS or Pipeman is our man...... but Pipeman is way too old, as is fatty, to be GH and the Lawende's suspect is a bit too old at 30 to be Toppy as well.

pipeman at about 40, is also too old to be Lawende's suspect.

we dont know if Toppy is GH, because he only signed the witness statement once.... how convenient, but 22 years old or very close, is too young to be any of these other 3 guys!

the only guy in age that's about right is BS to Eddowes, but he's no good for GH, but i'm not totally convinced either way.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm. Did you sit on your glasses and break them? I've repeatedly posted that Pipeman was described at 35 years old, not 40, so please stop saying he's 40 and that he's too old for anything. And Marshall likewise never said his man was 40, he said middle-aged, which might be 40 or might be closer to Marshall's own age, which was 50 something. Whatever sources you're utilizing for your posts, I suggest you burn them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Lawende's man is irrefutably more similar to Schwartz's broad-shouldered man than the "pipeman", who was obviously taller and had completely different headgear. There is really nothing to be concerned about as far as the 19th October article is concerned. It appeared in the Police Gazette, thus assuring us that no skullduggery occurred; it was Lawende's full description, as related by the police. And fortunately, for those who believe Stride was a ripper victim, "sailor man" and "broad-shoulders" mesh up very closely in terms of general appearance (age, height, dress, hat etc). The worst thing the Stride-as-ripper-victim proponents could possibly do, in my opinion, is to focus inordinately on "Pipeman" as a viable suspect (which, in comparison to broad-shoulders, he transparently isn't). Unless Schwartz lied, Broad-shoulders is the obvious killer of Stride - definitely. He was observed attacking Stride at the location in which she died, and around the accepted time of death.

if so, then you had better find another GH then, because at 21 to 23 Toppy is too young to be BS, as well as the Lawende suspect

Toppy does not look like JTR anyway, but this thread here, makes this seem even more unlikely.

i dont think Toppy is the guy we're after anyway, but i'm just saying that's all.

i think also Ben, that you need a good reason to explain away the risk that JTR faces, in going to the police, to insert himself into this case, realising that he's been seen more than once.... Garry needs to think about this too

because including MJK..... GH has been seen at least 3 times and by as many as 30 coppers over the next 2 days, this is definitely bothering me.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Mitre Square Man: of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak

Pipeman: 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Two suspects, both around the same age, similar height, fair/brown hair and moustache.

Remarkable that all these years writers have been comparing BS Man to Lawende's man, but no one has pointed this out before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

You're a creative fellow.

5 years and 2 inches difference (more if you go with the 5'7/8).

Fair and brown aren't the same.

They both have a moustache. That's about it!

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm. Did you sit on your glasses and break them? I've repeatedly posted that Pipeman was described at 35 years old, not 40, so please stop saying he's 40 and that he's too old for anything. And Marshall likewise never said his man was 40, he said middle-aged, which might be 40 or might be closer to Marshall's own age, which was 50 something. Whatever sources you're utilizing for your posts, I suggest you burn them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

it doesn't really matter that much because middle aged is definitely from 40 onwards, this is no good for any of us!

now your Pipeman is still too old and tall for Lawende, who is about 30 and 5ft 8 or 9, stop trying to make your guy fit this suspect, BEN is right; you're twisting the sources to fit LE GRAND...... your guy lives 6 miles away, where the hell is he going to change to fit the Lawende suspect and dont tell me he has rented a room close by, or has a ``bolthole`` like D'ONSTON.