Ripper Victims?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ben,

The eye witness evidence is the weakest in any criminal case, but since it's all we've got, we must work with it, but not accept it as gospel. If Lawende or one of the guys guessed Eddowes' man at 5'9" tall, then surely 5'11" or 6ft isn't out of the realm of possibility? And Pipeman was 5'11", 35 yo, fair haired, etc. Le Grand was 6ft tall, 35 yo (or so he said in 88) fair haired, etc.

As for Le Grand-as-killer inserting himself into the investigation, there have indeed been instances of serial killers resorting to such tactics for the pure thrill of it, but I would suggest that the majority of "inserters" do so primarily for reasons of self-preservation; to lessen the value of potentially incriminating evidence, and I see fewer indications of this in Le Grand's case.

Then you are clearly unfamiliar with the argument against Le Grand. Stride is the one murder where a suspect was witnessed, damn near the spittiing image of Le Grand, who was in fact within a mile of the murder site in that very hour. This is also the one murder where Le Grand is stuck to it like ugly on an ape, coercing Packer and the two sisters to give false evidence in order to create the fictional 'Grapeman', a suspect very unlike himself. We also find he and Packer at the front of the Batty Street lodger story. Yet not a whiff of him in Mitre Square. He was likely out of pocket on this ordeal and risked trouble with the police. He certainly gained nothing from it, other than completely throwing off the investigation, which apparently was his intent.

Hmmm – I’m not altogether sure than an examination of his less than illustrious criminal career substantiates this statement:
Le Grand was a professional, not an idiot.

That's because you haven't examined his career. But those who did, such as Scotland Yard, most certainly disagreed, from the police sergeant who dogged him for years, to Sir Melville Macnaghten himself. But please feel free to believe what you'd like.

Anyway, enough about Le Grand. I shouldn't have allowed Malcolm to cajole me into discussing him. I will now try to force myself to shut up before the Cartel shows up to nitpick.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Ben
I don’t disagree with some of the points you raise there but the Ripper story has many instances of people being slung out late at night from lodging house kitchens when they weren’t supposed to be there. Also in a big lodging house – such as say the Victoria Home – we know that the inmates were not allowed in the sleeping area in the daytime and their cubicles were not private areas where possessions could be left. It would only be ‘private’ while he was sleeping in it. They had cleaners and so forth about the place in the daytime.
If my memory serves me correctly the Victoria Home actually had a separate facility for keeping possessions safe – but that meant essentially giving them to the keeper. Not a wise move if the said possession is a kidney or uterus.

Tom
I await you book or dissertation with renewed eagerness!

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom
I await you book or dissertation with renewed eagerness!

Why?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

Hi Lechmere,

I doubt very much that the killer intended to retain the organs for any appreciable length of time. Once safely inside the buidling, he could have made for one of the upstairs "cubicles", and conducted whatever sordid business he had planned for them there. Organ-taking serial killers often experiment with cannibalism, and this may well have been the intention of the Whitechapel murderer. The bedrooms may well have been closed during the day in the Victoria Home and similar establishments, but the same cannot be said of the kitchens, which were often situated below street level. The Victoria Home's own kitchen also boasted a "great fire". I don't suppose for a moment that the killer left anything of an incriminating nature either with the deputies or in the bedrooms when he was out.

Hi Tom,

I wouldn't say that Le Grand as Lawende's man is beyond the realms of "possibility", but his physical particulars would make such an identification somewhat unlikely, to my mind. Schwartz's pipeman was too vaguely described to be the spitting image of anyone, and whoever pipeman was, there is little reason to cast him in the role of Stride's killer, especially when there was another man physically manhandling her nearby.

Thanks for clarifying your belief that Le Grand inserted himself into the investigation out and self preservation, and to divert the investigation away from himself via a completely fictional suspect. I certainly can't fault such reasoning, as it is precisely the sort of behaviour that we've seen other serial (and one-off) killers resort to. If true, it would imply that he went about it a less direct way than Armstrong and some of the others (for instance, he didn't come forward and say, in effect, "I was pipeman, and I was there because I witnessed this assault etc"), but that's no reason to rule it out I suppose.

All the best,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Le Grand was a professional, not an idiot. He would have had no reason to stand outside her room for an hour.



Actually, he quite resembles one of the descriptions of Eddowes’ man, being only two or three inches taller than the description. As for Kelly, I don’t know what evidence you value or don’t, but Le Grand owned nice long coats and wore a watch and chain when he wanted to. Jack the Ripper took organs with him, therefore had a private place. Where was Hutch’s private place? Hmmm? And did Hutch go six miles out of his way daily to be in Whitechapel? No, he was already there. If you want to talk levels of suspicion, Hutch is about a 3 and Le Grand a 10. One could argue that Hutch killed Kelly, if they want to go for that ‘she was a copy cat’ nonsense, but it would be an uphill battle to call him JTR. Either he was a sidekick to the real killer, or he was an honest witness, or he lied to gain celebrity and carte blanche treatment from the police. Those are your three choices.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

sorry Tom, but you're now talking rubbish and this is for the first time that i've ever known you, so that's about 10 years !

1....LE GRAND looks nothing like LA DE DA, who in turn looks nothing like Pipeman, or any other suspect seen close to a victim, the description of LA DE DA is unique...... he's a one off odd ball

2....GH was returning from Romford in Essex, so forget your `stay at home` 6 miles rubbish, GH lived right in the murder zone and by his own words.... was out that night stalking the streets, or as good as !.... it's more likely that JTR lived in the kill zone than he didnt, you can see the pattern.

3....the average sighting looks far more like Joe Barnett, than it does Pipeman, and your Pipeman is definitely not the Lawende suspect...FACT!
because for this to be so, Pipeman must have come along later, but due to the tight timing this is virtually impossible, thus for me and many others here ``sailor boy`` is the killer...... this description is very similar + or - 50% to the guy seen talking to Stride, it is also similar to GH, but your LE GRAND doesn't fit in at all..... nor does Tumblety/ D Onston/ kosminski or Druitt

4....someone called GH knew MJK and that is far more than you can say of LE GRAND, or any other top suspect

5.... your suspect is no stronger than Kosminski ... FACT ! he's a street criminal only that has never killed anyone, this is a far cry from a savage mutilator. JTR is far more likely to be G.Chapman than LE GRAND, who at least was a convicted serial killer and highly suspicious too.

[Malcolm X]

hi Tom

sorry i was a bit harsh maybe, but you know what i mean, because Pipeman appears about 40, taller and looking more like D'Onston.... more distinguished like a teacher/ senior clerk etc.

Sailor boy..... well as the term sais really, about 28, 5ft 8'', fair, scruffy, wind swept.... a brick layer, labourer, sailor, medium to stocky, but also in the possession of various hats/ jackets etc.

you see, broad shoulders/ sailor boy were seen on the same night as Pipeman and they are thus distinctly separate individuals, as are broad shoulders to sailor boy...... 3 men, but Pipeman also does not look like my LA DE DA, because he looks like a mirror reflection of G.Chapman.

so you can see how hard it is to fit your suspect into any of the last 3 murders, but this problem also applies to any other top suspect, that does not look like joe Barnett..... i think !

WHITECHAPEL is full of career petty criminals, be careful that you're not hyping up your suspect too far, because you need at the very least, proof that he's a violent person, especially towards women.

but hating women like Tumblety isn't enough, as you will understand, as is threatening letters to the police, or convictions for stealing watches etc.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Sailor boy..... well as the term sais really, about 28, 5ft 8'', fair, scruffy, wind swept.... a brick layer, labourer, sailor, medium to stocky, but also in the possession of various hats/ jackets etc.

In the absence of anything better, I feel it has to be accepted that Lawende saw Jack.

1) Doctors's estimated time of death at 1.40 earliest.
2) Someone identified as Eddowes by Lawende was at the scene at 1.35 (or 1.38 if you go with Levy).

Not concrete, but convincing.

So, any theory has to match the description given by Lawende, give or take a couple of inches. My view is that a 5'11 man is outside the range of reason. He would have appeared to have been a tall fellow to Lawende (when stood alongside Eddowes).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm,

You seem to know far more about what these disparate characters looked like in person than myself or anyone else in this thread, so far be it from me to disagree with you. However, if all these characters witnessed by people looked so darn different, then you must be suggesting none were the same man? That's possible to, since it should be remembered that no one saw a woman murdered, therefore, there are exactly zero known witnesses to the killer of any of these women. We merely have witness testimony of varying degree to men seen with the women before their murders. Some are more likely than others.

Now, if one were to argue that some of these men were one and the same, then it would be difficult to explain the different modes of dress, would it not? However, in my research of Le Grand and private detectives of that period, I've learned it was habit to have stashes of clothing placed about, as when following someone around town, a change of clothes or hat here and there would help keep someone from noticing they were being followed by the same man. It's also a matter of record that Le Grand had a varied wardrobe, which in fact did include nice coats, watch chains, gloves, etc. And obviously he could also mix in with the riff raff of Whitechapel, where he perhaps felt more at home. It's odd for you to say Le Grand never killed any body. He said he did, and given his record, I'd be amazed if he hadn't. I'm not speculating here, just stating facts, and that IF Le Grand were the Ripper, or the murderer of any of these women, you can bet your bum he'd have been prepared in a number of ways. That why I've said that when he's placed into the frame, all the minor (or not so) mysteries that plague each of the murders ceases to be mysterious. He's perhaps the only suspect who answers more questions than he raises, which makes him quite intriguing to me. But this isn't a Le Grand thread, so I'll stop there. As for Chapman, I really don't think he should even rank among the suspects. A 23 year old hairdresser poisoner? What a wuss.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

But was Le Grand responsible for any of the Torso murders?

[Tom_Wescott]

How would I know, Lechmere?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Speculation is free

[Malcolm X]

How would I know, Lechmere?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

ha ha, you two have obviously got some unfinished business.

it might help you to post up exactly what LE GRAND looks like TOM, i'm only going by what Pipeman looks like.

yes all these JOE AVERAGE suspects look different, but only really their clothing, these suspects are thus open to interpretation, so with an error of maybe 50%, we have BLOTCHY FACE, BROAD SHOULDERS, SAILOR BOY, that could all be the same person...... but not GH, because there's no way that he's Blotchy face, that would be suicidal for him..

because 5ft 8'' in pitch darkness could easily be 5ft 10'' when he's seen again down the road an hour later, plus a short salt and pepper could be mistaken for a broadsholders open coat, these eyewitnesses are all ``down and outs`` especially the ones living in Millers court, they will be totally unreliable.

but on a silhouette, the one thing that you do notice accurately is head gear, even if you're drunk, but then again; this is easy for JTR to vary, as is his coat/ scalf, especially between Stride and Eddowes.

but unfortunately if your suspect looks like D Onston, then you do have a problem, because it's not just height, it's age too, plus it's hard to mistake someone that's slim and tall, from someone that's medium built/stocky and average height.

where did LE GRAND live, because you said something that bothered me, dont expect JTR to live outside the kill zone by as much as 6 miles, he either lives in it, or just outside...... the confusion over the Eddowes apron tells you one thing, that JTR lived somewhere close by, especially if he returned to dump it later on......Stride/Eddowes is too close to each other, it tells me the killer couldn't really be bothered to go too far for his next victim, he didn't mind hanging around that night, it's leaving his territory that he didn't like.

``i'm returning from Romford`` probably means, ``i'm stalking my territory, walking around in circles, unable to find a suitable victim``

[Lechmere]

Apart from your closing remarks I think you are starting to get there Malcolm!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Malcolm,

According to Le Grand, he was 35 in 1888. He was 6ft tall, fair, possibly dark skin, had grey eyes. We are not sure about his facial hair at this time. Because he was active in PI work, he was probably clean shaved, or a small moustache at the most, to facilitate false whiskers. He did wear silent boots and owned an arsenal of weapons, though how proficient he was with these weapons we'll never know, though it was stated he was good with a knife.

I hope you realize that to most of us, Blotchy Man is not a suspect. And personally I see no resemblance between him and BS Man or Lawende's man. But that's how fluid this witness evidence is. I'm also scratching my head at the moment trying to figure out where Mrs. Long's man went to, since you never bring him up. If you want BS Man and Lawende's man to be one and the same, you'll need to explain the change of dressing.

Regarding Le Grand's residence, an estimate (and nothing more) is that he lived about 6 miles away from Flower and Dean Strreet at the time of the murders, or at least that was his primary residence. He also had at least one office in the Strand. I understand what you're saying about suspects who live far away, although clearly that shouldn't apply with Le Grand since he knew every nook and cranny of the East End (that's part of how he was employed by the WVC) and was provably in the East End every night as part of his duties with the WVC, so it requires no speculating to put him in the area. He would have had kept lodgings in the East End, as it's inconceivable that he would have patrolled on foot all night and then walked six miles back home. A cab would be possible, but still not likely given how long it would take to travel the distance. As he was expected most nights at 74 Mile End Rd for the WVC meetings and patrols, I imagine he had a residence not too far away.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

But was Le Grand responsible for any of the Torso murders?...Speculation is free.

I just remembered this thread is actually a torso thread, so I suppose your question is more on topic than what we’ve been discussing. LOL.

Of course I’ve had to think about Le Grand as a possible torso killer, but any argument for that would have to be entirely speculative. In the Ripper crimes, we have him not only involving himself in the investigation, but thwarting it, and I have genuine police suspicion against him for those crimes. Not the case with the torso murders. But I’ll present some points in favor.
One of the theories about the murders is that they were killings for hire, probably to get rid of female blackmailers. I personally favor this theory, versus a sexual serial killer, because the big mystery about the victims is that more effort and energy went into disposing of them than did killing them, so the 1888 series seems more practical than sexual in nature. And keep in mind that this theory predated Simon Wood’s discovery of a newspaper advertisement, placed by Le Grand, offering his services to men being blackmailed.
Another point in Le Grand’s favor would have to be that he had the means work in private, use cabs and the fact that he had absolutely no qualms about killing someone if he could gain from it.
I think the torso killer(s) showed a similar morbid sense of humor and disdain for the police, as displayed by both Le Grand and perhaps the Ripper.
If my estimation of the torso killings is accurate, then the killer must have come from an extremely small pool of possible men, one of which was certainly Le Grand, and among them he might be the only one who came under suspicion of murder during those times, but none of that in any way constitutes proof, and at this juncture I would not stretch my neck out to say that Le Grand was definitely either the Ripper or the torso killer.

A couple of points working AGAINST Le Grand as the torso killer is the obvious fact that he was in prison at the time of the Pinchin Street torso, although this could have been the work of an accomplice. I think there’s evidence in at least the Whitehall torso case of their having been more than one person at work. And only in this case do we have the word ‘Lipski’ chalked above the torso, referencing back to the Berner Street duo witnessed by Schwartz.

Another point against would be the evident lack of curiosity shown by the torso killer, versus that shown by the Ripper. He just seems to have wanted to kill the woman swiftly and with little or no mess, whereas the Ripper wanted to see their insides and eventually demolish them. Two very different motives in these series of killings, but then just because a prostitute has sex with one man only for financial gain, doesn’t mean she can’t with another man for pleasure. And I think if the torso killer were a man for hire, it’s only because he was predisposed to WANT to kill women, and had figured out a way to get paid for it.

Again, the above is entirely speculative and was only provided because I was asked, and should not be taken as me saying Le Grand was the torso killer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott