Ripper Victims?

[Mads]

I have been thinking lately about these murders and I am wondering- was JtR the same person as the torso killer? I believe that JtR had multiple personalities, one was the Ripper, another was the Torso Killer and at least one was "normal". Any opinions?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Mads. That's not a very popular idea to discuss on the boards these days, so look out for some of the responses (or lack thereof) you get! In the off chance they were the same killer, I don't think split personality would play into it. It would be a remarkable anomaly for a person to have two separate personalities that are different serial killers. Even more remarkable that both personalities got away with it! If they were the same person(s), then the motives between the two series would have to have been very different. In the case of the Torso murders, very little effort went into the actual murder. It was merely a means to an end. However, this killer went to great lengths to dispose of the bodies and keep the identities of the victims from being discovered. The Ripper, by contrast, put himself at great risk to commit the murders themselves, and doesn't seem to have been concerned about the identity of the victims being found out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mads]

Thank Tom! I've been stuck on that idea for a while now so it's good to clear my mind and try again at this whole crime-solving thing

[Hunter]

'Torso murders' or murders followed by dismemberment and then disposal of the remains had a long history throughout the latter half of the 19th century in the greater London area. In a heavily populated area it would have been perceived as a safe way to destroy evidence and avoid prosecution - although it didn't work out so well for Henry Wainwright. He probably should have left Harriet Lane buried where she was.

[Phil H]

I don't for a moment believe that the two killers were the same man.

For one thing their "territories" were different. As were their modes of murder.

I believe that the Torso Killer was AWARE of "Jack" at least - his placing of the Pinchen St torso on his rival's territory suggests that. The Torso Killer also seems to have a sense of humour, as Pichen St and the choice of New Scotland Yard suggest.

"Jack" MIGHT have been aware of the Torso Killer if his attempts to decapitate some victims were exactly that, and not just too deep throat cutting.

Mei Trow in his recent book on the Torso Killings suggests that a cat meat factory might have been a suitable venue for cutting up human corpses. No 29 Hanbury St had a cats' meat shop in its ground floor front room. So could "Jack" have known and worked with the Torso Killer and thus have been familiar with the layout of No 29?

The games one could play are fascinating, but I don't think worth much unless some evidential link could be suggested or forged.

Phil

[sdreid]

Might as well kick off the Quasquicentennial with mention of the Paris torso that was found in November of 1886. Where was George Chapman 125 years ago?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Stan. Why the mention of Chapman? He makes an even less likely Torso suspect than he does a Ripper suspect.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jonathan H]

If you remove Druitt, the timing of whose demise locks in Kelly as the 'last' victim, the other Whitechapel murders then come into play as possible murders by the same hand.

Tom,

Could Le Grand have killed Coles?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Jonathan,

McKenzie was murdered about 3 weeks after Le Grand went to prison, and Coles 4 months before his release. The timing is interesting, and I've flirted with the idea that an accomplice (BS Man?) committed the murders (or at least McKenzie) to take attention off Le Grand for the crimes. While this may be true, I'm by no means convinced of the innocence of Sadler in the Coles case. But to answer your question, Le Grand was behind bars for both McKenzie and Coles.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

I think all the murders and attacks in the East End from Annie Millwood to Coles, including Pinchin Street but excluding the other torsos should be left on the Ripper file as likely to be part of the sequence.
I am personally dubious about some, but if I am honest mostly because I have difficulty (although not an impossibility) in making my favoured suspect responsible for them! (That would be Millwood, Wilson, Smith and Coles).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lech. I had no idea that Millwood, Wilson, Smith, and Coles were your favored suspects!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[K-453]

My spontaneous impression of the torso killings is, they are gang violence.
Whitechapel of 1888 was described as 'vice-ridden', and there were gangs blackmailing and threatening prostitutes.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi K-9, not sure I see what you see. Gangs were more of the rob and run variety, and prostitutes did far more blackmailing than they were victims of it. Not sure I recall any prostitute being blackmailed, actually. Assuming the torso murders of 1888 were all related, I'd say we're dealing with the opposite of your typical gang of young, broke East Enders. We're dealing with someone who has a private place of residence or business, who can kill efficiently, dismember with some apparent anatomical knowledge, carry the various parts in some manner (cart or carriage) without drawing attention, and get away with it repeatedly. If more than say two people were involved, and one got arrested for an unrelated crime, he'd be sure to sing like a bird on his accomplices, but this never happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Pontius2000]

if JTR were not dead or incarcerated after Mary Kelly, what would be the most logical next step? for me, it would be Elizabeth Jackson.

1. Martha Tabram- stabbed to death and left next to dwellings

2. Nichols- killed, cut open, left in the street

3. Chapman- killed, opened, disembowelled, left in a backyard (slightly more discreet than an open street). body part taken as souvenir

4. Stride- killed in a court, but interrupted

5. Eddowes- killed, opened, disembowelled, badly mutilated, left in a court not heavily travelled at that hour. body part taken as souvenir

6. Kelly- killed, opened, disembowelled, very badly mutilated, left inside private residence. body part taken as souvenir

7. Jackson- killed at an unknown location, mutilated and dismembered, disposed to be found later. body part taken as souvenir? her head was not found was it? weren't there also other organs missing?

to me, it's a progression. as the heat picked up, JTR became more discreet. he knew Mary Kelly would eventually be found, but it could've been days or a week. Jackson's killer knew her body parts would eventually be found, but by the time it was, the heat would be off him.

I'm not saying that I think Jackson WAS a JTR, I'm saying that it shouldn't be quickly dismissed on the basis that JTR left victims out in the open and Jackson's killer didn't. for me, JTR killed as a purpose to mutilate and covet. the fact that the bodies were left where they died was just a necessity, not part of the overall plan.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Pontius, but Elizabeth Jackson was not found where she was murdered, and her killer went to pains to keep her from being identified. It was only through her clothes that she was identified at all. And are you saying that you don't feel that Jackson was related to the other torso murders?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott